Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

reason.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 271 posts

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#191

Post by dragonwriter »

Symmetry wrote: post #168
brockers wrote: post #94

The author is a little confused about the history of Libertarian thought on this issue. A minimum basic income (MBI) is NOT a social progressive concept first thought up by western social democrats but was originally a fundamental tenant of a flat tax system. Something Libertarian's have been arguing in favor of for a long time. The basic design is simple. You give every person a single dollar amount as a MBI and the…

Another effect that's probably more relevant for Hacker News readers, it doesn't dis-incentivize having your income be higher some years and lower on others. Very important for people considering founding startups, but also for people thinking about pursuing more education.

> Another effect that's probably more relevant for Hacker News readers, it doesn't dis-incentivize having your income be higher some years and lower on others.

A progressive tax system that enabled either (a) recognize income for tax purposes in advance receiving it, or (b) deferring recieved in year t+1 that is much greater than in year t for tax purposes would do the same thing, without being a massive tax break (compared to existing progressive systems) to those who make large incomes year-after-year consistently.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#193

Post by swalkergibson »

dnautics wrote: post #161
pinaceae wrote: post #60

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. You don't think that this is a poor model of crime? There are plenty of empirical counterexamples. During the great depression in the US, crime rates went to an all-time low. The gap between the rich and the poor in the US is at an all-time high; yet the crime rate is again at a low.

> During the great depression in the US, crime rates went to an all-time low.

Citation, please. The examples below suggest that this is not at all the case.

http://www.ushistory.org/us/48e.asp

http://depts.washington.edu/depress/crime_seattle_great_depr...

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?s=902192a69...

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#194

Post by dnautics »

swalkergibson wrote: post #193
dnautics wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. You don't think that this is a poor model of crime? There are plenty of empirical counterexamples. During the great depression in the US, crime rates went to an all-time low. The gap between the rich and the poor in the US is at an all-time high; yet the crime rate is again at a low.

> During the great depression in the US, crime rates went to an all-time low. Citation, please. The examples below suggest that this is not at all the case. http://www.ushistory.org/us/48e.asp http://depts.washington.edu/depress/crime_seattle_great_depr... http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?s=902192a69...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9723440...

http://kondratiefflongwave.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/ushom...

OK, perhaps I was incorrect to say "all-time low", and should have said "trended towards a local minimum over the course of the depression"

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#195

Post by ctdonath »

ManFromUranus wrote: post #137
ctdonath wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. Once you've established a "protection money" system, establishing their "right" to your money & property, they are now incentivized to demand - and take - more. Panem et circenses is the last stage of polite society; the cost eventually becomes unbearable as fewer work and more expect comfort & leisure for nothing…

All you have to do is ask yourself, if you were getting this basic sum, would you be content to do nothing? The answer is probably no. I would do something, some kind of job, as would many people. If only for their sense of self worth / self esteem. I believe that almost everyone would get a job even though a basic income means they don't have to. Also keep in mind, that no matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be pe…

A LOT of kids finishing school would be quite content getting cheap housing, eating junk, and playing video games or hanging out all day every day. The longer they do, the less incentive to be productive.

I wouldn't "do nothing", but before meeting my wife I was on track to reducing my expenses to near zero with intention of "going off the grid" with vanishingly little interaction with & contribution to society.

BTW, a suitable gun is about US$500 - a lot cheaper than paying people enough to not hurt you.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#197

Post by amerika_blog »

pinaceae wrote: post #145
ctdonath wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. Once you've established a "protection money" system, establishing their "right" to your money & property, they are now incentivized to demand - and take - more. Panem et circenses is the last stage of polite society; the cost eventually becomes unbearable as fewer work and more expect comfort & leisure for nothing…

Right, and looking at stats like murder rates, incarceration numbers, etc. the US system is clearly working and superior. I can walk any street at 2am in Vienna without looking over my shoulder. Oakland? Philly? A personal gun doesn't stop anyone. Fantasy from lala land.

There are other factors involved in that situation which cannot be discussed here, comrade.

One is the lack of cohesive national culture.

Another is that, by approach the poor in an appeasement frame of mind, the USA has already induced them to riot/murder with impunity.

Europe's policies don't work in the USA, and in fact, they don't work in Europe, which is bankrupt and collapsing fast.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#198

Post by Domenic_S »

adekok wrote: post #36
peterdundi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

This seems to me a typical US response. Let me give you a perspective from the rest of the world. I've lived for years in multiple countries on multiple continents, so I'm not just talking out my backside. In the rest of the world, the poor people vote for health care, welfare, and unemployment insurance. This is because they want that safety for themselves if something goes wrong. They recognize that these programs…

> This is because they want that safety for themselves if something goes wrong.

I have a hard time with this. If your monthly nut is $5k (mortgage, cars, kids, etc) what good is an $800/month basic income going to do for you when something goes wrong?

In fact, it's likely that most people will raise their standard of living by the amount of BI they get, so their net/net when something goes wrong will be exactly the same as if they didn't get BI in the first place.

If you're the type of person that would live below their means and save for the rainy day, BI is moot - you will be fine when something happens. If you're not that type of person, then you're just as screwed with or without BI.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#199

Post by shiven »

BillyMaize wrote: post #152
jiggy2011 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be surprised. A friend of mine who is a very smart guy got laid of from his job with a bunch of redundancy money. All he did was sit and play WoW until the money started to run out and then went out and got another job. If you can do whatever you want, you will probably want to do stuff that makes you happy. One of those things will probably not be reporting to a boss or person to whom you are accountable b…

This. I am an engineer and work hard because I enjoy the feeling of success as well as the wealth, but for many people (I believe most) this is not the case. On both sides of my family most heavily use government aid when they can and don't care about being successful but simply about getting by. My brother is obsessed with WoW and doesn't care about his future and my mother is perfectly content to just watch TV all…

So, to put it in a crass manner:

    Poor == Lazy
???

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#200

Post by BillyMaize »

shiven wrote: post #199
BillyMaize wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I am an engineer and work hard because I enjoy the feeling of success as well as the wealth, but for many people (I believe most) this is not the case. On both sides of my family most heavily use government aid when they can and don't care about being successful but simply about getting by. My brother is obsessed with WoW and doesn't care about his future and my mother is perfectly content to just watch TV all…

So, to put it in a crass manner: Poor == Lazy ???

No... I'm saying that while we on the HN community like to believe that everyone makes honest effort to do great things with their careers most people work to make a living, and if given the option of not having to work and still make a living that they would choose not to work. I myself might consider from time to time not working if I could do so with a decent livable income and I think the majority of people would be OK with the basics if it meant they had all of their time to themselves.
Post reply on HN