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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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131–140 of 271 posts

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the optimist's view, think how many people whose lives are being spent working at Walmart or McDonald's who could instead be at home developing skills they are actually interested in (which school does a poor job of teaching), such as programming or sculpture, etc. Imagine the entrepreneurs who might feel freed to give business a chance, rather than feeling that they can't quit their day jobs? It would be a gran…

From the pessimistic point of view, why would anyone choose to work a crappy job at Walmart or McDonalds when the government would give them the same money without having to do anything. Walmart and McDonalds (and everyone else) would therefore either go out of business or raise their wages. Raising their wages would increase the price of their goods. Increasing prices of goods would increase the cost of living which…

> From the pessimistic point of view, why would anyone choose to work a crappy job at Walmart or McDonalds when the government would give them the same money without having to do anything.

because, despite the myth of the lazy poor, most people enjoy being productive.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#132
post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

> what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education ... After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator

It's also a catalyst for the kind of lifestyle that quickly stifles further education. As it stands, unskilled, uneducated or partially-educated, non-wealthy individuals often have one realistic option: low-wage, long-hour labor which seems to tend to form a trapping cycle.

Now consider for a moment the line of work for (I think it's fair to assume) the majority of users of this site (software development) and the nontrivial number of people in the business who are largely self-educated. It would be silly to promote self-education and free-time online learning as an exact analog to accredited institutional education, but this field in particular presents an interesting case study in individuals simply choosing to get educated in a subject and succeed on their own time.

Is it likely that a subset of the population would simply settle for the minimum income lifestyle? Of course. But I'll wager without a second thought that freeing up a large other portion of the population to pursue their interests will in fact raise the number of educated individuals entering the workforce. After all, the promise of a higher standard of living is still a huge motivator with a basic income of only $10,000/year (still below national poverty level.) And societal attitudes towards the former group are not likely to change -- in fact the sense of tax-dollar ownership is liable to increase stigma on nonworking or nontraining individuals.

There are no modern examples of such a system to draw concrete conclusions from, so it's all hypothetical in the end. But I think you are looking at it a bit narrowly and missing the greater economic good that could come from removing "basic survival" from the top of the list of concerns of a huge portion of the population.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#133
post #78

And when they spend their money stupidly and don't have enough money for health care or food, we let them die on the street, right? Or we let private charities cover the gap. But when they don't, we let them die on the street? And if we don't let them die on the street, we find ourselves back where we started, in need of a social insurance safety net for basic necessities.

We have the same problem today. For instance, food stamps can be sold/wasted, and not everyone who needs them signs up.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#134
One question: has anyone else ever done the math on this?

Let's suppose we have a basic income of $1,000 per month per citizen. This is barely enough to get by in someplace like eastern Washington and not enough to get by in someplace like Seattle but it's a nice round number so let's go with it.

The US population is about 300 million. But let's assume only adult citizens receive basic income. If you want children you have to provide for them yourself. How many adult US citizens are there? Well, Barack Obama won 51.1% of the popular vote in 2012 with about 66 million votes with 58% turnout. By my calculations that's a voting-eligible population of about 220 million.

220 million people receiving 12,000 a year is around 2.6 trillion dollars. Total federal tax revenue is around 2.8 trillion dollars, and total expenditures are around 3.5 trillion. You think you can make up the difference by eliminating other entitlements? You can't. Look it up. Basic income + defense + transportation already exceeds the current budget, with nothing left over for courts, embassies, Medicare, the space program, or the Coast Guard. And that's with a particularly low basic income that isn't really enough.

So you're left with having to raise taxes. Fine, you might say, just tax the rich--except even if you subtract out a lot of entitlements to close the budget gap, including social security, you still have to raise maybe an extra trillion dollars in tax revenue just to keep a comparable deficit.

The only way to really make basic income work is if it's effectively means tested. One way of doing this might be to say: if you get paid 72,000 a year, your salary drops to 60,000 and the government taxes your employer for the 12,000 that you receive in basic income; either that or you just don't receive basic income anymore, it's mathematically equivalent. But that is more of a guaranteed minimum income than a basic income anymore, and it's politically that much more difficult.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#135
Having been in the welfare system at various points in my life I can easily imagine that the bureaucracy must be expensive to upkeep. There are numerous complex rules, all of which need to be checked and double checked at regular intervals.

A basic minimum income would at a stroke sweep a way a large army of box-ticking officials and end the pernicious moralising and absurd punishments for not adhering precisely to whimsical rules.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#136
post #75
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poverty is a huge cause of crime, disease, teen pregnancy, and poor educational outcomes. Do you disagree? And if someone refuses to get an education or better themselves when given the opportunity, are they somebody you'd like to hire for your company? Better to keep them placated with some minimum of food and shelter so they don't rob you, and save the jobs for the people who want them and will execute to your sati…

I took a criminology class in college and the big takeaway was the supposed statistical correlation between race and crime - which, if study correctly - actually correlates to poverty and crime.

That seems to obvious to me, I'm always surprised that more people don't see it that way. I believe that most racism is really classism, and exists primarily in places where race and poverty correlate.

Not to say that actual racism doesn't exist; of course it does. But I think when most people think "I'd rather not be around 'those people'", if they thought about it they'd find that 'those people' are really defined by either their culture or economic status, rather than their race, and that their race is just a visually-obvious proxy.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#137

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. Once you've established a "protection money" system, establishing their "right" to your money & property, they are now incentivized to demand - and take - more. Panem et circenses is the last stage of polite society; the cost eventually becomes unbearable as fewer work and more expect comfort & leisure for nothing…

All you have to do is ask yourself, if you were getting this basic sum, would you be content to do nothing? The answer is probably no. I would do something, some kind of job, as would many people. If only for their sense of self worth / self esteem. I believe that almost everyone would get a job even though a basic income means they don't have to. Also keep in mind, that no matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be people who refuse to work. You could make unemployment punishable by death, you still wouldn't be able to force those people who don't want to work to do something. That's just the way it is. So the only thing you can really do is pay them to stay out of the way and not cause any problems. This is cheaper than buying a gun and being eternally vigilant, or paying for security measures.

Severe disincentives to crime aren't as useful as you think, because those committing the crimes do so because they don't think they will be caught. Look at some of the absolutely medieval penalties they have in the middle east for various crimes, and yet they still have criminals.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#138

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

Basic income is a good idea but you have the rationale wrong.

The right theory for a basic income should be that all people deserve a stake in the accumulated knowledge and technology of mankind, just as they deserve equal stake in the land and other natural resources. As general advancement accelerates and allows for greater production with less labor, a greater percentage of that wealth ought to be shared with everyone. So in the thought experiment where no one really needs to work and the robots take care of all of our basic needs, eventually distribution of resources should be more or less uniform.

If you view basic income as handouts then you have to answer all of the objections that you'll find in this thread: you're stealing from someone else to pay for them, you're disincentivizing work, etc. Basic income should instead be viewed as arising from principles of fairness.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the pessimistic point of view, why would anyone choose to work a crappy job at Walmart or McDonalds when the government would give them the same money without having to do anything. Walmart and McDonalds (and everyone else) would therefore either go out of business or raise their wages. Raising their wages would increase the price of their goods. Increasing prices of goods would increase the cost of living which…

> From the pessimistic point of view, why would anyone choose to work a crappy job at Walmart or McDonalds when the government would give them the same money without having to do anything. because, despite the myth of the lazy poor, most people enjoy being productive.

What data (if any) would convince you that the idea of the lazy poor is not a myth?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#140
post #69

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

Or a good reason for private security.

This has been tried. Brazil. South Africa. China. India. The list goes on. These are countries where the wealthy can't walk around freely on the streets without substantial protections, where quality of life is simultaneously high and low.

Instead of enjoying your wealth on your own terms, now you're in a cycle of vetting your drivers, your nannies, and anyone else who comes within physical vicinity of you. Your physical movements are restricted to routes and destinations that are vetted and secured.

And as the wealth gap increases, the threat to your life increases also. Kidnapping a millionaire may not be worth risking your life - but what about kidnapping a billionaire? As inequality rises the lengths people will go to to harm you increases also, resulting in ever-higher fences, ever more advanced security, and a non-stop arms race between you and the poor.

This is already reality in a lot of places. I for one don't want it to become the reality here.

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