Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money • Hacker News Board

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#81

Post by icebraining » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #22

ataggart wrote: post #4

Whatever the economic effect, I have a hard time imagining the political class giving up the power that comes from being the middle men between dispersed costs and concentrated benefits.

I have two concerns: the first is basically the one you identified: welfare and similar programs are less about helping people and more about keeping a large voting block in a state of dependency. I'm not sure the alternative of basic income changes that, it might actually increase it since more people would be getting basic income than are currently getting welfare and other forms of assistance. Any program which en…

To the extent you introduce money into the economy that was not created by productivity

I think the idea is that the money would be transferred using taxes, not printed.

So what would happen is that the basic income would become the new zero line.

How? Even if you did print the money, you'd devalue all of it, not just the new amount. If a dollar from the basic income is worth $0, then all dollars are worth $0, unless it was somehow printed in non-fungible currency.

Of course, the inflation would probably affect some prices more than others, but I don't see how could it ever turn the basic income into zero income.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#82

Post by protomyth » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:06 PM UTC

I guess I'm cool with it but I really wish it was scaled with income (like every $2 earned decrease payment by $1) and paid daily M-F.

I do worry about politicians buying votes by promising more money each election. There are some fairly hard solutions, but they go against our current political tradition. I've heard a means testing for voting saying that if you take more money than you pay, you are ineligible to vote or sit on a jury.

[edit] I assume that all the other programs would be removed including student loans, unemployment, minimum wage, welfare, etc.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#83

Post by Xdes » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:08 PM UTC

dsr_ wrote: post #31

peterdundi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

To begin with, we're talking about tax money here. It's not your money any more. It was your money. Then you gave it to the government. [If it makes you feel better to say that the government forced you to do that, fine. If you want to talk about monopolies of violence, fine. But there's no way you can reasonably consider it your money once it's left your bank account, any more than money you paid to Amazon is still…

I'd prefer the money to go into big metal bins and be set on fire.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#84

Post by jrs99 » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:08 PM UTC

megaman821 wrote: post #12

Retric wrote: post #2

I think a basic income is a decent idea but 583$ a month aka 10k - 3k for heath insurance seems rather low to replace things like disability checks especially if your removing all benefits for children. It's also not goig to satisfy people on social security who are getting checks for as much as 3,000$ a month.

I think this would have to be combined with universal healthcare. If basic income is enough to live on barring any medical issues, then universal healthcare would take care of the medical issues part. As for social security, it would have to be slowly phased out. The people on it now and the still working have been paying into the system, and should at least get there money back plus interest.

universal health care is coming no matter what. The best governments will figure out a way to provide that, and if we want to stay competitive, that's what we'll have to do.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#85

Post by rayiner » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

swalkergibson wrote: post #29

peterdundi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

In any society, there will be the haves and the have-nots. The transition of wealth between those two groups will always happen, whether by roving gangs of marauders (like in Somalia), or by the government. I personally prefer that the wealth transition occur through government due to the ancillary benefits of things like roads and police, but that is just me.

This is true, but you gloss over one point. Any society will have its haves and have nots, but those will not be the same group of people across societies. In the U.S., the "haves" are pencil neck geeks. In Somalia, they're strongmen. Government creates this cocoon that allows the geeks to thrive. When there is government, and the concomitant law and order, having a good eye for investments is a trait that can make someone a "have." When there is no government, what makes someone a "have" is the ability to lead men in the exercise of violence.

At the same time, the "have nots" are not the same group of people either. I think many people rotting away in the ghetto, getting involved in gangs, would in a different sort of society be leaders of men, people of rank.

Taxes are what the geeks pay for the government to suppress the people who would otherwise be the "haves."

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#86

Post by pinaceae » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

Xdes wrote: post #69

pinaceae wrote: post #60

As a European we are bit further down that path than the US. I assume most of the readers here are "wealthy", would not need basic guaranteed income. So let me explain why this is a good idea from a rich man's perspective. You give poor people a basic sum of money so they don't climb over the fence and kill you in your sleep. That's it. Behind all the nice language this is what it boils down to. It is paying off poor…

Or a good reason for private security.

well yeah, the Brazilian model. But this sucks, try living behind barbed wire and being dependent on your bodyguards. I definitely prefer being able to walk the streets at night by myself and not getting robbed/stabbed/hijacked.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#87

Post by gnaritas » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

Kiro wrote: post #46

Can someone tell me why basic income won't just lead to inflation? Everyone gets more money which drives up the prices until the gain is negligible.

Everyone doesn't get more money, the money is just distributed differently. The rich would be paying in much more than they get back in basic income. This doesn't change the money supply, just the distribution.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#88

Post by saraid216 » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:09 PM UTC

saosebastiao wrote: post #3

Some libertarians may not be fans of a guaranteed or basic income because such a system would, they argue, disincentivize work. Murray believes that his surtax scheme would incentivize work after someone began earning over $25,000. I'm fairly libertarian and also agree with the concept of a basic income or negative income tax, but phrases like this are very dangerous. It would only begin incentivizing work after you…

The issue of "incentive to work" is one that I think people in general are too philosophically cowardly to explore seriously: people tend to resort to cultural tropes rather than think about what principles are driving their analysis.

As kiba implies, you're basically saying "work or death". This isn't a real choice, unless the person in question is suicidal or otherwise interested in dying. Freedom of choice necessitates at least two desirable options; without this, it's coercion. You can replace "death" with the more optimistic "poverty" or "homelessness" if you prefer: the philosophical problem is the same.

The issue isn't even "a basic income will remove incentive to work". The issue is "why does there need to be an incentive to work in the first place". If society will break down if we all stop working, isn't that a problem to be solved, rather than a state to be maintained?

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#89

Post by quinnchr » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't manage to empathize with those different than you there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like an animal is unreasonable. Beyond breathing and feeding yourself, empathizing with other people is pretty much human being 101.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#90

Post by mildtrepidation » Wed, Nov 27, 2013, 5:11 PM UTC

iSnow wrote: post #80

prostoalex wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If every child is eligible for his fair share of minimum income, there's a good incentive to direct productive-work energy into baby-making activities, boosting household's basic income numbers with each new addition.

With the aging population in Japan and Europe this sounds not so bad.

Which is great if you don't consider overpopulation a problem. It's good to try and ensure a high standard of living and economic comfort, but that doesn't happen in a vacuum: If your solution encourages procreation, it's important to review that not just in terms of problems it might solve but also those it might create or exacerbate (as well as results that may not be so clearly positive or negative but will introduce further change).