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Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

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Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#21

Post by lelandbatey »

cobrausn wrote: post #11
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

And what happens when it decreases the number of people who choose to get an education to seek greater opportunities? After all, the thought of perpetual poverty is a huge motivator. With that gone? Won't we see a higher divide between skilled and unskilled, rich and poor? I'm a bit skeptical about this supposed panacea that cures crime, disease, and teen pregnancy, all in one fell swoop.

Once people reach a livable income, do they totally stop learning, inventing, or creating? I know I don't, and I know other people I see with financial security don't just "stop" either. Because of that, I believe it's at least worth a try.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#22

Post by ams6110 »

ataggart wrote: post #4

Whatever the economic effect, I have a hard time imagining the political class giving up the power that comes from being the middle men between dispersed costs and concentrated benefits.

I have two concerns: the first is basically the one you identified: welfare and similar programs are less about helping people and more about keeping a large voting block in a state of dependency. I'm not sure the alternative of basic income changes that, it might actually increase it since more people would be getting basic income than are currently getting welfare and other forms of assistance.

Any program which encourages people to be dependent on government rather than themselves is problematic in my view (obviously with exceptions for those with disabilites that make this impossible).

My other concern is that it's simply inflationary. Giving every adult a $34,000 basic income (the amount proposed here) would mean a married couple would be bringing in $68,000 a year doing NOTHING AT ALL productive. There's no getting around economics: money is an abstraction of productivity. To the extent you introduce money into the economy that was not created by productivity, you simply reduce its value. So what would happen is that the basic income would become the new zero line. It represents the value of zero productive work. Wages and prices would simply inflate so that a person having only basic income would be as impoverished as someone having zero income is today.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#23

Post by shadowfiend »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

Let's go philosophical here, since you chose to take it that direction. What makes it YOUR money? You earned it, yes? But what gives it value? An agreement with other people, yes? What do we name that agreement with other people? Can there be further stipulations? A price, if you will, for having the convenience of an agreed-upon currency, of a set of courts to seek redress if that agreed-upon currency isn't given to you for the work you've put in? Is it okay with you if that agreement tries to get more wealth into the overall system? How do you know if a solution will succeed at doing that unless you try it?

That's a lot of questions, and few answers, of course. But I think considering these ideas through this lens may be useful. The concept of “my” money, “my” property, etc, is something we've agreed on. There's nothing that says there can't be more facets to that agreement. That is what we organize for. And ideas like this, and like welfare, etc, are ideas that are meant to raise well-being. People who do well tend to create, as well. And creation breeds wealth. So while the specific mechanism whereby we encourage this creation and well-being is something that's absolutely up for debate, it's your money only insofar as you're not trading it for a service. In this case, the service is, greater wealth for all.

Will it work? I don't know for sure. But experimentation seems like a pretty good way forward, rather than simply sitting on our hands in a world where we believe we can increase well-being, out of fear that maybe our money might be misused along the way. If VCs thought this way, a lot of companies wouldn't exist today.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#25

Post by drcube »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

Because you gave it to them. Don't give them money if you don't want them to have it.

Since you voted for a government that distributes welfare from your taxes, the most efficient, effective and humane method of distributing that welfare is to hand out cash with no strings attached. Any additional administration is simply a waste of money, with worse outcomes.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#26

Post by bryanlarsen »

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

If you don't know a good, hard-working person who is unemployed or drastically under-employed, there is something seriously wrong with you.

You need to do something to get yourself out from the fantasy bubble that you live in. Do some travelling or take an effort to meet the disadvantaged in your neighborhood.

Probably the easiest way to meet some of these people is to meet some single Mom's. Some of them meet the stereotype, sure, but many of them are in that scenario through no fault of their own.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#27

Post by vidarh »

peterdundi wrote: post #9

This is unpopular here, but I really believe that if you can't provide for yourself financially there is something seriously wrong with you, and I don't think treating you like a child is unreasonable. Beyond washing and feeding yourself, getting an income is pretty much adulthood 101.

If you believe you are fully in control of providing for yourself financially, you are either in a tiny little minority, or hopelessly naive.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#28

Post by sp332 »

peterdundi wrote: post #17
sp332 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why does unemployment fluctuate so much? Do you think the population just forgets how to make money occasionally?

When unemployment fluctuates the bar for earning money is fluctuating. If you're the kind of person who is near that bar you need to take a good hard look at yourself.

Something external changed, and suddenly there's a problem with me? I need to look at myself, because someone else raised a bar?

I think your point is bullshit. It's not like people are capable of making money when the mill shuts down. There is literally no money left in the town then.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#29

Post by swalkergibson »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

In any society, there will be the haves and the have-nots. The transition of wealth between those two groups will always happen, whether by roving gangs of marauders (like in Somalia), or by the government. I personally prefer that the wealth transition occur through government due to the ancillary benefits of things like roads and police, but that is just me.

Re: Scrap the Welfare State and Give People Free Money

#30

Post by seiji »

peterdundi wrote: post #10
drcube wrote: post #7

I've been saying this for years now. Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions without the fate of crushing poverty over their heads. Give them the financial breathing room to learn a new skill, start a business, or simply find a better job than the one they currently have. Basically, the freedom to take risks. Rich people have been telling us for decades that is what they bring to the table. Risk.…

"Give people the freedom to make their own economic decisions" Why should they be free to make their own decision about how they spend MY money?

All systems end up having waste. Would you deny the millions it would help because maybe 50,000 people use their extra money on drugs, $2000 hand bags, and $500 designer belts?
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