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End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

nytimes.com

151–160 of 176 posts

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#151
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Capitalism == free markets == non-coersion Wrong. Capitalism is synonymous with free enterprise , not free markets. And free enterprise simply means that enterprises (rather than states) own the means of production.

Nope. Your definitions are contradictory. There is no such thing as a "free enterprise" without a "free market", and vice versa. To the degree you do not have a "free market," you have government regulation. To the degree you have government regulation, successful enterprises are organs of the state. Free markets == free enterprise == capitalism. Why? Because they all just fall out of "the government only uses force…

>>There is no such thing as a "free enterprise" without a "free market", and vice versa.

Your understanding of what is meant by "free enterprise" is false. Source: I have a degree in Economics and wrote my senior's thesis on this subject.

"Free enterprise" in this context means the enterprise has internal freedom - i.e. it is owned and controlled by non-state actors, as in people like you and me. These non-state actors can do whatever they want. Yes, there are still rules and regulations they operate under, but this does not mean that they are not free.

The language "free enterprise" is specifically used to distinguish capitalism from communism, where the state controls the means of production, i.e. the enterprises (e.g. factories) are owned by the government, which typically exerts authoritarian control over them and determines what should be produced and how. The enterprises in communism have no internal freedom: they follow the government's orders. If the government says the factory should produce computers, that's what the factory produces. If the governments says it should produce tanks, that's what it produces. Whereas in capitalism, enterprises can produce whatever they want as long as they do it legally. They are still free.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not your house, it's the bank's house. That's what a mortgage is.

You know, until it isn't. http://4closurefraud.org/2010/07/20/bank-of-america-confisca...

Yes, and had you read my GP post you'd know that everyone in the topic agrees that BoA should be litigated against for damages by the affected homeowners and the people ordering the bogus foreclosures charged criminally.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To get to "its not okay for the government to read my email" you have to get rid of the notion that "its okay for Google to read my email." No, you don't. You opt-in to Google reading your mail by using their free service. You can't (easily) opt-out of the government reading everything you do. You have a choice with Google and any other private firm.

That's a viable argument, certainly. But for the Supreme Court to read into the Constitution a right that isn't plainly in the text (as it did with the right to abortion in Roe v. Wade),[1] it's not enough to just present a viable argument. You need the weight of social and academic consensus. You need the majority of people to firmly believe that something should be a new social norm. In this context, the social nor…

Good (and clarifying) rebuttal, and now I see what you were saying in your original comment re: tech companies undermining the creation of a such a norm for the Supreme Court to use.

I do think that unlike Roe there is some room in the Fourth Amendment for finding that bulk storage of all electronic communications, regardless if they are being investigated for content or not, results in an unreasonable search. The Fourth Amendment has been found since Katz to cover more than just physical searches.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#155
I'm glad these guys are here for us. I honestly can't believe some of the comments on the times site.

My main issue is that this has not become a debate, it's still an order. And it's an order that violates our fourth amendment right. This right was part of handshake for a new system, and it cannot be violated save for some rare situation we could all agree is reasonable.

No one should think this is reasonable... security is lax, control of the data is lax ("corporate store"? Are you kidding me?). The situation is flipped here. Without leaks, we would actually be suffering more. Security clearance is not protecting us, it's using and abusing us. It's being used to hide things that would harm us more if they were never leaked. And FISA courts are used to give us some illusion that rules will be followed while having it waved in our face that we're lucky to have them. This is crazy.

Try to accommodate any warrantless surveillance in the fourth amendment's text without creating either a comical contradiction that violates its entire spirit or removes it entirely. We know that being ok with these citizen data programs amounts to being ok with not having this right, but we're still talking about it. I want to keep my right. And since the amendment was added in response to writs of assistance, unchecked delegation of authority so scarily similar to this reasonable articulable suspicion thing we are seeing today in both this and Stop and Frisk, i think we'd all be better suited to start with our right and add any exceptions as-needed, not have them added for us. I'm assigned a threat score even before i'm suspicious? To find out whether i'm suspicious? To then act on me because of this suspicion? All while making money off of me based on my actions? You want to buy my actions? Ok, name a price, i'll consider it.

I don't want to start this privacy war this gang wants me to. I'd rather we follow the law and consider those who don't criminal. Privacy is a buffer against abuse, not a place to hide dirty secrets. We can't predict or even see or notice all of the horrible loss of self control that might come about because of this collection. The chorus of "Nothing to Hide" in response rings eery in my ears.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that metadata is generated and collected may be an issue of technology, but that doesn't change the essential characteristic of whether it's your data, or data about you . E.g., in 1776, there were no video cameras in public places. But technology doesn't change the essential character observing you in a public place versus in a private place. > That notwithstanding, the entire notion of such meta-data is st…

And, of course, the first US metadata surveillance cases were litigated in the 1800s. I believe that fact pretty much kills this part of the thread.

[deleted]

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#157
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. Your definitions are contradictory. There is no such thing as a "free enterprise" without a "free market", and vice versa. To the degree you do not have a "free market," you have government regulation. To the degree you have government regulation, successful enterprises are organs of the state. Free markets == free enterprise == capitalism. Why? Because they all just fall out of "the government only uses force…

>>There is no such thing as a "free enterprise" without a "free market", and vice versa. Your understanding of what is meant by "free enterprise" is false. Source: I have a degree in Economics and wrote my senior's thesis on this subject. "Free enterprise" in this context means the enterprise has internal freedom - i.e. it is owned and controlled by non-state actors, as in people like you and me. These non-state acto…

> Yes, there are still rules and regulations they operate under, but this does not mean that they are not free.

Under rules and regulations, an enterprise is not free to allocate its capital at it desires, produce the products it desires, market them in the way it desires, and sell them to who it desires.

The degree to which that is true depends on the scope of the rules and regulations. If the only one is that there is a 5% income tax, the enterprise loses 5% of its freedom to allocate its capital. In reality, in our mixed economy, companies operate under many, many restrictions. In areas like finance and telecom, we have full-on regulatory monopolies: an enterprise has no freedom without permission, and new permissions are not being granted.

I am fully aware that academic economists consistently define things according to non-essentials, and the only thing I can do is reject that. A "free enterprise" must mean what the words "free" and "enterprise" mean in the English language. Anything else is a barrier to rational thinking.

If economists want a word for an enterprise that can "do whatever it wants, but still operates under rules and regulations," they (properly) have to make a new word for it, not re-use existing words that mean something different.

Actually, though, there already is a word for that: a "contradiction." An enterprise cannot be free and not-free.

Unfortunately, many academic economists want to "earn" their bread and butter by peddling contradictions to students and the public, and they deserve the very highest moral condemnation for it.

Why? Because that kind of behavior leads to recessions (such as the perma-recession we are currently in), depressions, and the rise of authoritarianism (fascism being one example from recent history). It leads to suffering and mass-killing.

Source: Reality.

To the degree that you are a victim of this, you should rethink your views. To the degree that you are a perpetrator (if at all), you should be ashamed of yourself.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framing the conversation as freedom vs safety is dangerous because it ignores the issue of government power. The danger of mass surveillance is not due to some abstract need for privacy, but rather because of the immense power the government has. The founding fathers acutely understood the dangers of government overreach, and the constitution of the USA was designed to keep it in check. However these days, the very p…

However these days, the very principles that the country was founded on are used as a shield to lull the well-fed and entertained population into a false sense of security about the benevolence of the government. I don't think these principles are used as a shield, I think they have been redefined and given the euphemism of "national security" to hide what the new definitions are, if there even are definitions beyond…

Good point, my phrasing was poor.

What I meant to say is that the government rhetoric about freedom and American principles is convincing because it is based on actual enlightened thought which makes it all the easier for evil men and well-meaning busybodies and bureaucrats to utterly subvert these principles until they are nothing more than the empty political slogans and propaganda used by totalitarian regimes everywhere.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#159
post #109

Surveillance. It always starts with a desire to be safe. And that comes from fear. It seems Americans today are afraid of more things than ever: pedophiles, guns, terrorists, lawsuits. Some news reports are ridiculous by foreign standards: teachers not being allowed to shake hands with students out of fear of sexual harassment allegations, boys suspended from school for drawing guns, bystanders not administering firs…

Here is an idea I have been toying with for the past few weeks: Fear has become patriotic. Before I say more, I'll say that I am not a fan of patriotism, I think it is a mild form of bigotry, but I recognize the positive connotations it has to the population at large. I think that patriotism has also traditionally been associated with traits that are seen as positive. Traits like self assurance, confidence, pride, an…

I am soooo going to plagiarize the crap out of that.

I have my doubts that it was ever the way you described it. But given these discussions are often rhetorical I don't think that detracts all that much from the concept.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#160

Surveillance. It always starts with a desire to be safe. And that comes from fear. It seems Americans today are afraid of more things than ever: pedophiles, guns, terrorists, lawsuits. Some news reports are ridiculous by foreign standards: teachers not being allowed to shake hands with students out of fear of sexual harassment allegations, boys suspended from school for drawing guns, bystanders not administering firs…

I couldn't agree more. Security and freedom are inversely proportional. I was upset when the start of the second paragraph to this piece stated that the most important thing for the government to do is protect people from terrorists. I couldn't disagree with that more, safety is never a given and freedom and resiliency in the face of adversity and setbacks should be our goal, not a nanny state.

> Security and freedom are inversely proportional.

That would imply that the relationship is much more linear than reality. Particular measures have individual costs and benefits that are not necessarily closely related and some actions may cost privacy and may even be counterproductive. Sometimes adding freedom may add security e.g. not interning people without trial as that can drive support for terrorists and prevent suspicions being reported.

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