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On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

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Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#31

Post by solarmist »

gaius wrote: post #26
coldtea wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This confuses me, because its as if the author tries to force his valuation of the opportunity onto all prospective applicants. Perhaps it's rather as the author believes in an objective reality, where there is one true valuation of a thing, and he's not so much trying to "force his valuation onto all prospective applicants" as trying to "communicate the real valuation to all prospective applicants". > He recognize…

Quite. Imagine you are a hiring manager (or perhaps you don't have to imagine). Would you make a candidate a higher offer seeing Penny Arcade on their CV? Then what is the cachet exactly?

Nope, but that's not the cachet it would add too.

Their cachet is pure geek cred.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#32

Post by yarou »

saraid216 wrote: post #12
GFischer wrote: post #6

"you know what’s even more rare? A guy who can write excellent code in several disparate languages, manage multiple different server installs, administrate databases, and configure office firewalls." Is that really so hard to find? I might be selling myself short... (I actually thought I'm worth less on the marketplace by being a "generalist")

Most tech companies have an entire engineering department with sub-divisions in order to get each of these roles done. If you can fulfill four jobs by yourself, then you should be getting paid for four jobs. In Seattle terms, that should be north of 200k annual.

And yet, you'll find that the position probably pays less than even 1/4 of the value generated. Labor hasn't evolved much since the days of the robber barons. Employment should be a contract between equals, not an instrument of subservience. Unfortunately, the meme of exploitative employment reigns supreme today, globally.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#33

Post by jdminhbg »

grecy wrote: post #15
tvladeck wrote: post #3

I have the opposite reaction to this posting: Penny Arcade are being abundantly clear and transparent about the requirements and drawbacks of the role. It's not exploitation; it's a trade, and Penny Arcade have listed out their terms. Everyone is free, or not, to go along with what they want. The author mixes two messages: (1) the merits of the offer, and (2) the ethics of the offer. The author may be right about (1)…

> Everyone is free, or not, to go along with what they want. But in America, with no social safety net, the alternative is not pretty. Reading about unpaid internships, Wal-mart having food drives for their employees and McDonald's recommending employees get a second job makes me sick to my stomach. The very fact that people even take these jobs is proof they don't have another choice - what sane person would work th…

> But in America, with no social safety net

I'm starting to doubt that this kind of thing is hyperbole and starting to think people actually believe it.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#34

Post by asdasf »

jblow wrote: post #24
GFischer wrote: post #6

"you know what’s even more rare? A guy who can write excellent code in several disparate languages, manage multiple different server installs, administrate databases, and configure office firewalls." Is that really so hard to find? I might be selling myself short... (I actually thought I'm worth less on the marketplace by being a "generalist")

What is described is something toward the top end of basic competence. The only reason someone would think this is crazy is if they have been hanging around bad engineers and / or administrators. That said, most engineers / administrators are pretty mediocre, especially these days now that so many more people are doing it. So. I mean, if "managing office firewalls" is on someone's list of things that are impressive,…

Differing expectations doesn't mean one set of expectations is wrong. If someone claims they can do database administration, and then I ask them a basic question like what indexes would you need to create for an example query, and they have no idea, they are not capable of database administration. They mean "I can type apt-get install mysql-server" when they say they can admin databases.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#35

Post by methodover »

tankbot wrote: post #20
methodover wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He makes an explicit case for both (1) and (2). He doesn't try and merely imply (2). Also, a transparent trade can still be exploitive. If I were to advertise for a slave, that would be an advertisement for an exploitive "offer." The real question is if this offer, in particular, is exploitive or not. I think he makes a solid case that it is.

> He makes an explicit case for both (1) and (2). He doesn't try and merely imply (2). You read wrong. tvladek did not say Buecheler implied anything, only that being correct about one thing does not imply being correct about another. And if you advertised for a slave you would presumably be dealing with the owner of said slave, so if you were offering a reasonable price, then no that would not be an exploitative off…

Voluntarily entering into slavery was indeed popular. Individuals would sell themselves into slavery to pay a debt, for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_slavery

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#37

Post by nerfhammer »

dllthomas wrote: post #22
asdasf wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. And of the small number of people who believe they can do that, 99% of them can not.

How do I tell? (nod to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect )

The DKE means people rate themselves closer to average for both those below average and above average. But people below average still think they are below those at the top, just not by the amount they think.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#38

Post by johngalt »

Par for the course for IT/Sysadmin type jobs. "We expect you to build the hospital while running the emergency room and operating room." They are just being up front about it. There are a few areas where they glossed over it. I will translate:

"You need to have a crazy-person level of attention to detail" - We will judge you based on anything you've overlooked, rather than what you've done.

"A motivated self-starter who can overcome or workaround issues independently" - Don't bother telling us we are asking for something impossible, that's your problem.

"Flexibility to travel up to 30% of the time." - Not only should you be able to do four jobs, but you should be able to do them from an airplane/car/hotel room with permanent availability.

"Should have no problems working in a creative and potentially offensive environment." - Note this doesn't apply to you, only we will be insulting prima donnas. You will conform.

"Flexibility adapting to deadlines, changing schedules, priorities and unpredictable events in a fast paced environment." You should be able to meet deadlines that are assigned arbitrarily. You'll have no control over your own schedule, but you'll be expected to give highly detailed attention to whatever the project of the day is.

"It’s rarely we call on it, but if something breaks in the middle of the night, you are expected to be on call to address that issue 24/7." - We'll cheap out at every opportunity, buying shitty hardware and cheap services, because it's not us that has to fix it when it's 2am Christmas morning. If you keep shit running, then we were right to be cheap. If it fails, then you're a bad IT person. That you recommended a different option is irrelevant.

"we are not money-motivated group" - We aren't motivated to give you any money.

PA will surely find someone who meets their requirements and accepts their level of compensation. PA will be lucky to hang onto them for more than a year. Anyone who has accumulated all of the skills that this post requires, will also not stay in this position for longer than it takes to put it on their resume.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#39

Post by jblow »

asdasf wrote: post #34
jblow wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is described is something toward the top end of basic competence. The only reason someone would think this is crazy is if they have been hanging around bad engineers and / or administrators. That said, most engineers / administrators are pretty mediocre, especially these days now that so many more people are doing it. So. I mean, if "managing office firewalls" is on someone's list of things that are impressive,…

Differing expectations doesn't mean one set of expectations is wrong. If someone claims they can do database administration, and then I ask them a basic question like what indexes would you need to create for an example query, and they have no idea, they are not capable of database administration. They mean "I can type apt-get install mysql-server" when they say they can admin databases.

I would say that said applicant is very clearly wrong.

Sure, there are a lot of people out there who exaggerate on their resume, but this has nothing to do with the existence of people who actually do know things.

Re: On Penny Arcade, Exploitation, and the Myth of the Do-Everything Rock Star

#40

Post by dllthomas »

nerfhammer wrote: post #37
dllthomas wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do I tell? (nod to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect )

The DKE means people rate themselves closer to average for both those below average and above average. But people below average still think they are below those at the top, just not by the amount they think.

So if I think I'm above average, I'm good?
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