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End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

nytimes.com

51–60 of 176 posts

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#51

Surveillance. It always starts with a desire to be safe. And that comes from fear. It seems Americans today are afraid of more things than ever: pedophiles, guns, terrorists, lawsuits. Some news reports are ridiculous by foreign standards: teachers not being allowed to shake hands with students out of fear of sexual harassment allegations, boys suspended from school for drawing guns, bystanders not administering firs…

I think that the idea of surveillance is to increase safety with only a marginal decrease in freedom. Additionally, one could argue that as our freedom grows the opportunities for surveillance increase. That is, if you use the same means of communication as available in 1776 you'll have just as much freedom as they did. But in 2013 you have much more freedom to communicate over various mediums. Your freedom has incre…

> Lets ignore the efficacy of security checks, and say that you're 10x more likely to die in the flight w/o security checks

You are justifying massive spending and time-cost based on your own unsupported hypothetical. Why do that when we already have data regarding airline safety with simple metal detectors? We know how that performs, and we know current efficacy is low and the cost to society is high.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#52
What this editorial gets right is that the oversight regime for domestic surveillance is inadequate. What it misses, however, is that big piles of data are inevitable with the current trajectory of technology. It will not be possible to have the piles of data not collected. As others have written, the government surveillance agencies essentially saw what private industry was doing and said "I want a copy of that."

I think we need to rethink some things:

1. In the short term, one of the biggest changes that has to be addressed is the current court doctrine that privacy has not been violated if no people are actually looking at the data. Given that much of the surveillance is directed by automation, we need to recast that doctrine to include some of the automated analysis of the data. It's a thorny question, and one that will take some time and effort to get right, but there's no time like now to start.

2. We need more forceful and more transparent oversight of surveillance. There is a risk that the surveilled might change their tactics based on lessons from oversight reporting, but it seems clear at this point that the trade off is necessary. To quote the editorial: "The usefulness of the bulk collection program has been greatly exaggerated. We have yet to see any proof that it provides real, unique value in protecting national security." Trade-offs are only worth making if you get something. Time to revisit the trade-off.

3. We need to address both the big piles of data in the government's hands and those in private hands. This is going to require rethinking ownership of the data, and probably moving the US more towards an EU-style privacy directive. Again, a longer process, but one that needs to start now.

4. As a country, we need to start toward a more rational view of terrorism risk. Plenty has been written about how disproportional our response has been. Time to rebalance the scales.

In the end, we're going to continue to have big piles of surveillance data as long as we continue our technology trajectory. We need to start figuring out how to work with it, rather than try to stop it.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#53
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not very worried about Google arresting me at some point in the future with their jackboot thugs for something I did or said in the past (when X wasn't illegal). This applies to Facebook, Twitter, AT&T, Verizon, Samsung, Snapchat, and so on. When these guys start trying to acquire their own domestic armies, then I'll get really concerned. There seems to be a common gloss-over regarding the fact that it's the United S…

You should be concerned now, because the government can compel those companies to hand over their dossier on you, including your cell's tower or GPS records, your extremist views (surely something you've written is extremely different from someone in power, now or in the future), your advocacy of treason (you must have expressed displeasure about a President or member of Congress at some time), your support of terror…

I think everyone here would agree about that, but you are ignoring that avoiding an intrusive commercial product, or obfuscating your private information from a commercial product is easier than avoiding state-actor pervasive surveillance. It would be a step in the right direction to reduce the state-actor threat.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#54

Surveillance. It always starts with a desire to be safe. And that comes from fear. It seems Americans today are afraid of more things than ever: pedophiles, guns, terrorists, lawsuits. Some news reports are ridiculous by foreign standards: teachers not being allowed to shake hands with students out of fear of sexual harassment allegations, boys suspended from school for drawing guns, bystanders not administering firs…

The Ben Franklin quote is apropos here: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither."

While it's wildly misquoted on the interblags, you can't read out the word "essential." The point of the quote isn't that no trade-offs between freedom and safety are appropriate, but rather that we shouldn't trade away those freedoms that are "essential." It is debatable whether monitoring of the internet, a technology that didn't even exist for most of American history, is a trading off "essential" liberty, or whether its an "inessential" liberty.

Ben Franklin, like the other framers, realized that freedom versus security was a trade-off. Remember, the Constitution itself was a reaction to the Articles of Confederation, which created a government that turned out to be too weak to protect peoples' safety, both from external threats (Indians, European powers) and internal threats (domestic insurgents). The Constitution draw the safety versus freedom line a little closer to "safety" by creating a more powerful, more centralized federal government.

This balancing is also why the 4th amendment uses the wiggle word "unreasonable." Searches and seizures are okay, just not "unreasonable" ones. Well how do you decide what is "reasonable" versus "unreasonable?" You figure out how to appropriately trade-off freedom versus security! If the founding fathers didn't intend for us to engage in such balancing, they would've left out the word "unreasonable." No searches and seizures, even if necessary to solve a murder or kidnapping. After all, that would maximize freedom at some cost to security.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#55

Surveillance. It always starts with a desire to be safe. And that comes from fear. It seems Americans today are afraid of more things than ever: pedophiles, guns, terrorists, lawsuits. Some news reports are ridiculous by foreign standards: teachers not being allowed to shake hands with students out of fear of sexual harassment allegations, boys suspended from school for drawing guns, bystanders not administering firs…

Framing the conversation as freedom vs safety is dangerous because it ignores the issue of government power.

The danger of mass surveillance is not due to some abstract need for privacy, but rather because of the immense power the government has. The founding fathers acutely understood the dangers of government overreach, and the constitution of the USA was designed to keep it in check. However these days, the very principles that the country was founded on are used as a shield to lull the well-fed and entertained population into a false sense of security about the benevolence of the government. Ironically people in oppressive third-world regimes would hold no such illusions, but in the English-speaking world we get "meh, what do I have to hide?". The insidious thing about this is that history's lessons on the subject can not be cited without sounding like a crackpot.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#56
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Okay, so tell me how call records generates by ATT that are never even in my possession are nonetheless "my" papers or effects? The text of the amendment does not clearly support your position. Indeed, the focus is clearly on personal things (house, person), not things possessed by third parties.

By extension, then, wiretaps are just fine, by anybody. All that data, entering and leaving your house, is not in your house, so it's fair game. So is opening mail (if it's in the post office it's not under your control, right?) Your car? It's on the street, so what if we attached GPS devices.

Those microphones and cameras in public places are there for your protection. We'll never abuse that, trust us. Oh never never never.

("Hey, this guy voted Replubricatic last election, stick him on the list, too. Hey, he gave money to my opponent!")

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#57
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If she runs again in 2018, the best plan might be convince enough Democrats and Republicans to vote for an alternative Democrat in the primaries to make the general election Dem v. Dem. Then you'd get people actually considering the individuals... Of course, she's 80, so she might well not be running again anyway.

> If she runs again in 2012 2012 was last year.

Right, forgot to add 6. It's early... Fixed.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bogus argument. A mortgage is a private agreement between you and a bank. A bank foreclosing on a property without a mortgage (as at least Bank of America is alleged to have done on several occasions) is a tort that should be litigated and a crime that should be prosecuted.

So it's a private agreement? I don't understand your point. You agree to pay a certain amount and if you don't a bad thing happens. When it's a bank and a mortgage, you lose your house and your family is harmed. When it's the government and taxes, your wages are garnished and your family is harmed. Having a banking system helps people buy houses and having a government helps literally everything a society does.

It's not your house, it's the bank's house. That's what a mortgage is.

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bogus argument. A mortgage is a private agreement between you and a bank. A bank foreclosing on a property without a mortgage (as at least Bank of America is alleged to have done on several occasions) is a tort that should be litigated and a crime that should be prosecuted.

So it's a private agreement? I don't understand your point. You agree to pay a certain amount and if you don't a bad thing happens. When it's a bank and a mortgage, you lose your house and your family is harmed. When it's the government and taxes, your wages are garnished and your family is harmed. Having a banking system helps people buy houses and having a government helps literally everything a society does.

[deleted]

Re: End the N.S.A. Dragnet, Now

#60

Surveillance. It always starts with a desire to be safe. And that comes from fear. It seems Americans today are afraid of more things than ever: pedophiles, guns, terrorists, lawsuits. Some news reports are ridiculous by foreign standards: teachers not being allowed to shake hands with students out of fear of sexual harassment allegations, boys suspended from school for drawing guns, bystanders not administering firs…

People like predictability and the illusion of security. I've had conversations about the Snowden stuff that ended with the other conversant saying that they would always choose security every time, and if the government wanted watch everything they did then all the better.

Their entire worldview seemed to be framed on a false choice though - you can either have security and safety or you can be free of government intrusion. I fundamentally disagree with this, total government intrusion and surveillance is not security, nor is it safety, you simply move the danger from 'terrorists' to 'government agents'. Either way (to steal a line from the libertarians) men with guns and bombs might show up and ruin or end your life.

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