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I Hope My Father Dies Soon

dilbert.com

111–120 of 216 posts

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#111
post #7

Physician assisted suicide is a super slippery slope. I'm stunned when thinking people advocate.

It works very well in countries such as the Netherlands, I've seen that first hand in cancer cases. It is the most dignified thing to do for a thinking person. Do you have examples where a large percentage of the cases are obvious malpractice? I have long planned that I will do everything in my power not to stay on life support, and recommend you do the same for the sake of your family and your sanity.

Perhaps glibly tossing out a country with a strongly collectivist ethos that sees the government provide fully-funded, universal care for those with long term illness, as an example of why voluntary euthenasia would work well in a country where "Devil take the hindmost" appears to be the approach is not the best.

I'm generally a fan of voluntary euthenasia. But pretending there's no scope for abuse, especially in a country where the single biggest cause of personal bankruptcy is illness, is at best hopelessly naive.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#112

Since this concerns the U.S. government, I'll say that the vendetta against euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide by the Christian right is puzzling. The Bible has a very ambivalent view on suicide (as with any other topic), the tale of Samson being a prime example. The main argument against suicide comes from Corinthians, but it is starkly contradicted by other passages. A person who is slowly succumbing, immobile,…

The alternative to euthanasia is not suffering, but better hospice care. The sad thing is that not every hospital provides that equally.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#114

As broken as our system is (and Scott's obvious pain should make it clear that it _is_ broken), there are things you can do to make it suck just a little less. Please talk to your family and your doctor about your wishes in terms of life-sustaining care. Even in your 20's, in perfect health, please take some time to become informed about what the options are and how you can express what you want done or not done (thi…

Recently, I dated a nurse who worked on the cardiac floor of the hospital. She had patients who died every day. One day, the subject of DNRs came up. Interestingly, she mentioned that "they're meaningless". When I asked her about it, she said that if, for example, I had a DNR but an immediately family member told them to "save me", they would disregard the DNR and do it. The reasoning, she told me, was that regardles…

I'm in a similar position on a fairly regular basis, and I can tall you that DNRs absolutely do matter. It would take the threat of physical violence to get me to perform ACLS on someone with a valid DNR (this is in a prehospital EMS setting). A DNR represents the expressed wishes of the patient. Disregarding that is a serious breach of medical this.

I'm not sure how often she came across that particular dilemma. As a nurse in an ICU she would have limited decision making authority when it comes to initiating and continuing things like ACLS[1]. That's a doctor's call.

I will say that in my experience as a prehospital EMS provider, I absolutely honor the wishes of the patient (as expressed in a DNR) over the demands of the family. In fact, in my experience, the issue that arises is exactly the opposite. The family doesn't want CPR, etc, and states the patient has a DNR, but they're unable to produce it (hence my original post). In the absence of a valid DNR, I have to assume the person _does_ want all resuscitation measures attempted.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_cardiac_life_support

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#115
Very important: by law in most states, you can control the conditions of your end of life care. State laws vary but if you are in California, this[0] is the form you print out, fill out, have notarized, and give copies of to your regular physician and the person(s) holding your medical power of attorney.

Every person should do this, because without this clear and legally binding statement of your wishes, medical people are compelled to do everything possible to preserve your life.

Part 1 establishes who can act for you when you can't act for yourself (i.e. in a coma). Unless you are legally married or a minor (when your spouse or parent can act), nobody can intervene to make medical choices for you. Under privacy laws, nobody can even ask about your condition. So your live-in lover or best friend is helpless to change how you are cared for -- unless they are named in a document like this one.

Part 2 expresses your wishes on how you want to be cared for at end of life. If Scott Adams's father had filled out this form and checked 2.1(b), none of that tragedy would have happened! And you can add more conditions. On my form, for example, I specified that if I was unable to read, to watch TV, or listen to audio with comprehension, and had no reasonable prospect of regaining those abilities, my life was over and I wanted to refuse all medical interventions except pain management. My idea being, to die quickly of pneumonia is nearly as good as assisted suicide.

However you fill it out, do fill it out, and encourage your loved ones to do so as well. A stroke or fall or collision can wipe out your consciousness at any age, and this form relieves your survivors of a lot of horrible choices.

[0] http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/pdf/ProbateCodeAdvancedHealthCare... (PDF)

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#116

Wow. This touches home with me on many levels. I lost my parents a few years ago. Both suffered. I lost several other close family members who also suffered. And just last week somebody I was close to told me they were dying of cancer. And I'm a libertarian that strongly believes that government should keep its nose out of my life. So, of course, I'm going to play devil's advocate, at least a bit. Because if you can'…

I think the confusion here comes from viewing it as a single issue with sides rather than multiple aspects.

It's a crude comparison, but it reminds me of a discussion on Reddit where someone was struggling over whether it was time to put his dog down or not. One poster responded by essentially asking whether the OP liked their dog, and if they did why they would kill it, and then summed up by stating that anyone who could consider euthanizing a dog never loved it in the first place.

I actually like the sentiment if it is talking about a dog that had grown inconvenient, and it was probably expressed by someone who deeply cared about a first dog, but had never had a dog grow old. Of course, there were some pretty irate responses from people who had dealt with the real situation of a dear friend no longer enjoying life and feeling constant pain. Perhaps one of the difficult parts is that even the clearest cases, it is just resigning yourself, since doubts will always remain. It isn't difficult to imagine that you can always induce one more tail wag from your suffering dog, or presumably to imagine a glint in the eye from a loved one. That OP was in search of information to help make a difficult decision, and the only context that was relevant was that particular dog's health, not someone's ideological objection seeking to make it an issues with sides.

Imagine for a second if there were a sides debate over "medication" (of all types). There would be many constituencies lining up on those fakes sides. Some would talk about abuse, and health danger of using too much medication. Some would talk about personal liberty, and that people should be able to take what they want. Then there are some who believe that suffering is intrinsically virtuous, while others believe it is unethical not to treat pain. Some might believe that it is cheating for someone who doesn't exercise to take statins, while another group would argue that as prevention they ultimately save money and increase quality of life. I'm sure the people with eugenicist tendencies would want their say, too. And quite likely all of this would occur without any consensus over the relative importance of making people productive, or lucid, or comfortable, or keeping them alive, because the importance of these goals aren't only personal, but informed to varying degrees by the differences in regional and socioeconomic cultures.

Simply put, there aren't two sides to the vaccinations-and-marijuana issue, because it isn't even one issue in the first place. Is there someone who worries that it is a slippery slope from using general anesthesia in the operating room to vaccinating children? Probably, but you'd have to accept a lot of premises before even being able to engage in such a conversation. While there may be people who are in favor of or against two independent things for a single reason, those reasons are not the reasons that most people care one way or the other about either. Conflating them would be a trick to elevate those frameworks.

Likewise, whether or not to knock off an older person who wants to live but can't pay for their nursing home, isn't the same issue as assisted suicide, which isn't the same as a 'do not resuscitate' order, which isn't the same as decisions about who does or does not get access to a life-saving operation.

Allowing special groups to decide which issues get conflated into a single debate and then turns into two sides is an abdication of the responsibility to think critically on important policy matters.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#117

Reminds me of a good C.S. Lewis quote: Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approva…

C.S. Lewis had a lot to say that is germane to this conversation.

The pain so clearly reflected in Adams' words reminded me quite clearly of A Grief Observed.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#118
post #11

I get the story and am sympathetic to the OP, but a little confused about this line: And while I'm at it, I might want you to die a painful death too. Is he just angry at everyone?

"Is he just angry at everyone?" He is irrationally distraught, to the point of advocating violence. The reason this piece works (for me) is that everybody is irrationally distraught at this time in their life . So while I get that he wants pain and suffering inflicted on those he views as responsible for his dad's suffering, I could line up a million more people who want to cling onto dear grandpa as long as the old…

Voting is already an act of violence.

His father was suffering agony every day because government and its voters decided if anyone in that condition wants to end their life, that the course of action be to put anyone who showed him mercy into a cage or worse.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The religion is notably fascinated with martyrdom Martyrdom and suicide are nothing alike. To a Christian at least. About the same time I read a solemn flippancy by some free thinker: he said that a suicide was only the same as a martyr. The open fallacy of this helped to clear the question. Obviously a suicide is the opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside him, that he forge…

I never said they are. It was to illustrate Christianity's generally positive outlook on suffering as a trial.

One of the most prominent examples can be found in Mother Teresa of Calcuta, who had some disturbing ideas about suffering. To the point of denying painkillers to terminal patients.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#120

Reminds me of a good C.S. Lewis quote: Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approva…

Note that this quote only apply to human tyrants. As a Christian apologist, I'm sure C.S. Lewis didn't object to the benevolent tyranny of God. (I would, but I too have my own exception: Friendly AI).
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