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I Hope My Father Dies Soon

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Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#71

Post by mgkimsal »

GalacticDomin8r wrote: post #41
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #26

Since this concerns the U.S. government, I'll say that the vendetta against euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide by the Christian right is puzzling. The Bible has a very ambivalent view on suicide (as with any other topic), the tale of Samson being a prime example. The main argument against suicide comes from Corinthians, but it is starkly contradicted by other passages. A person who is slowly succumbing, immobile,…

The bible doesn't condemn suicide(or abortion) anywhere in it directly. However, as with any good moral book, it is ambiguous. You can use it advocate any position you chose. > Yet the Christian right insists that the agony be prolonged to a maximum. Christianity didn't always hold this view. I suppose some of the movement comes from the commandment "Thou shall not kill". Of course that is a very poor translation. A…

"Thou shall not kill"

Unless you're going off to war to kill bad people. Then it's justified. And the other side justifies it with their side's supernatural beliefs.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#72

Post by eitland »

darkarmani wrote: post #43
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #3

Physician assisted suicide is a super slippery slope. I'm stunned when thinking people advocate.

> Physician assisted suicide is a super slippery slope This has been disproven by the countries that have implemented it and not "slipped...unless you have some evidence of it being slippery?

Well, abortion is a similar example.

Where I live abortion has been allowed since I don't know when.

Doctors have been able to opt out from assisting. This fall politicians and pro abortion started making noise about how doctors that wouldn't participate should lose their license.

So, there is your slippery slope I guess.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#73

Post by ars »

marquis wrote: post #7
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #3

Physician assisted suicide is a super slippery slope. I'm stunned when thinking people advocate.

It works very well in countries such as the Netherlands, I've seen that first hand in cancer cases. It is the most dignified thing to do for a thinking person. Do you have examples where a large percentage of the cases are obvious malpractice? I have long planned that I will do everything in my power not to stay on life support, and recommend you do the same for the sake of your family and your sanity.

> not to stay on life support

It's not such a simple decision. I know someone who was on life support and minimally conscious and recovered from there to more or less normal health.

It would be better to specify something like: no life support provided there is also no cognitive ability for 2 months.

That gives at least a chance of recovery.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#74

Post by VLM »

droithomme wrote: post #55
forktheif wrote: post #17

Maybe he just didn't mention it, but nowhere in that post does it say that it was his father's wish to die if he was in such a situation. Helping someone die who made their wishes clear, I'm perfectly okay with. But assuming someone wants to die, I'm not. Whether his father made it clear or not, I don't know. It just isn't in the post.

I looked for that also and there was no mention. There's no doubt that if that was actually his father's expressed wish he would have featured that prominently in his article. What he does state is: > I'd like to proactively end his suffering and let him go out with some dignity. But my government says I can't make that decision. Neither can his doctors. He also points out early in the article that there are financia…

"He also points out early in the article that there are financial considerations:

> His smallish estate pays about $8,000 per month to keep him in this state of perpetual suffering."

Now you understand the reason for opposition to euthanasia. The purpose of government is to keep the rich, rich, and the poor, poor. Emptying his estate into the medical industrial complex is not an incidental side effect, but the sole purpose of its existence.

You want to see pet (dog/cat) vet assisted euthanasia made illegal? Implement pet health insurance. Try it and see.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#75

Post by PavlovsCat »

ygmelnikova wrote: post #64
smtddr wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Most folk would choose everything medically possible to be performed to keep them going for another 24 hours And by "most" you mean people who would have a _quality_ 24 hours. Because the person of subject in this article certainly wouldn't have made that choice. He couldn't; his mind was gone.

And there's the rub.. you can't be certain.

But why disallow physician assisted suicide in cases where one is certain (as in, the patient is of sound mind, but in constant pain, and makes that decision), because of cases where you can't be 100.0000000% certain?

Have you ever seen someone suffer horribly for no reason and without hope? I swore myself that if I ever have a terminal illness with a bad prognosis, I would rather kill myself before it's too late, instead of risking ending up in a situation where I can't; where I beg medical staff to kill me and they have to say "sorry, but I'm just doing my job".

Yes, dementia is tricky, and so is suicide in general. It's a deeper issue than just being for or against it. How would we weigh the risk of people dying needlessly ("easier access to suicide and getting rid of the uncared for elderly"), versus the risk of people existing (I wouldn't call it living) in extreme pain, without hope, needlessly? I don't know, but I do agree that something has to change. Medicine is supposed to make life better, usually it does; but sometimes it makes it hell, and the ones suffering in that hell should have a say in wether they want out or not.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#76

Post by badman_ting »

Sorry, but I am getting really tired of this form of discourse.

A million interests prevent you from doing a million things every day, but apparently it's only objectionable and worth remarking about when it's the government. And it's not even like I disagree with him -- yes we should allow assisted suicide. But boy oh boy is it hard not to notice that he wastes no time thinking about why things are this way, or which interests specifically may be preventing things from changing. Nope, it's just THE GOVERNMENT. Short circuit, do not pass go, no further critical thinking necessary.

"The Nanny State Didn't Show Up, You Hired It" http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/09/the_nanny_state_didnt...

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#77

Post by vezzy-fnord »

spindritf wrote: post #68
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #26

Since this concerns the U.S. government, I'll say that the vendetta against euthanasia and doctor-assisted suicide by the Christian right is puzzling. The Bible has a very ambivalent view on suicide (as with any other topic), the tale of Samson being a prime example. The main argument against suicide comes from Corinthians, but it is starkly contradicted by other passages. A person who is slowly succumbing, immobile,…

> The religion is notably fascinated with martyrdom Martyrdom and suicide are nothing alike. To a Christian at least. About the same time I read a solemn flippancy by some free thinker: he said that a suicide was only the same as a martyr. The open fallacy of this helped to clear the question. Obviously a suicide is the opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside him, that he forge…

I never said they are.

It was to illustrate Christianity's generally positive outlook on suffering as a trial.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#78

Post by FrankenPC »

Any form of suffering on the helpless scale is especially painful. There's something hellish about helplessness that can't be described, you just have to experience it. Anyone who goes through months or years of helplessness without committing suicide is a warrior. The particularly insidious part of this kind of trauma is the intense PTSD that is the result of this mental torture. Reading the S.Adams blog entry, you can just see the PTSD dripping off every word. I feel for him. I feel for anyone who has gone through this because there is no justice at the end of the bullst rainbow that the Christians describe.

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#79

Post by alan_cx »

stickhandle wrote: post #42

Please HN don't disappoint me with "slippery slope" and "it's too complicated" arguments. I want to continue to believe the level of discourse here is better than that. Its not just do-able ... doctor-assisted suicide is right.

Ooooooh, this really makes me angry..............

How dare you?

Those two arguments are very valid and absolutely need to be included in any serious discussion about this. Just because you so arrogantly dismiss them, does not mean that other people wont, worse still cant have those concerns.

To suggest that mentioning these two issues means one is not "better than that", what ever you mean by that but clearly it is intended to put down and dismiss any one who is concerned about them, is frankly vile. You have loaded your statements outrageously.Especially in such a fundamental question of life, where people will be at their most vulnerable. Essentially you are saying that unless people agree with you, they are some how stupid.

Worse still, the idea that some how doctors are so special that they can be wholly trusted alone with this is insane. Heh, here in the UK, one of our most frighting and notorious serial killers was a family GP. Oh, and one of the London bombers was also a doctor. Doctors are a flawed as the rest of us.

BTW, I fully support the idea that in some cases ending life humanely is the best thing to do. I would want such for me, and any one else who wants it. I too think that is right. However, with such a serious fundamental issue like this, we almost have to be guided by the serious concerns people have first. We must get people who are deeply worried by the implications to also go along with any solution. Its like drilling for oil with the consent of environmentalists. We need solution that satisfies all, or all we will have is a god almighty mess. We much not have such a mess when it comes down to legally killing people. I can accept people being divided on war, welfare, economics, which programming language is best, etc, etc, fine. But the sanctity of life is a little more important than that.

Its too fundamental to humanity. Its about how we regard life it's self. This is one debate no one gets to lay down the rules on.

(Deep breaths............ calm.............hmmmmmmmmm happy place......)

Re: I Hope My Father Dies Soon

#80

Post by usefulcat »

MetaCosm wrote: post #52
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #8

Wow. This touches home with me on many levels. I lost my parents a few years ago. Both suffered. I lost several other close family members who also suffered. And just last week somebody I was close to told me they were dying of cancer. And I'm a libertarian that strongly believes that government should keep its nose out of my life. So, of course, I'm going to play devil's advocate, at least a bit. Because if you can'…

It is important to understand that unless you build an "extreme" living will (food and water denial), there are many circumstances where you will still be tortured indefinitely. I speak from family experience. My father suffered many strokes towards the end. This caused neuropathic pain ... completely untreatable pain coming from inside his brain (primary somatic sensory cortex). He lost his ability to speak, move, a…

If you don't mind saying, in what country did this take place?
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