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Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

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Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#21

Post by rowyourboat »

Amadou wrote: post #17
rowyourboat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of this post is that there's a difference between the law and the standard. The law is publicly published, of course. What Malamud did was publish the standard. And, this distinction is important: You have to follow the law, but how you do so is up to you. Implementing the standard is just one way of doing that. So the standard is not, in fact, part of the law, just a shortcut to compliance in some c…

You have to follow the law, but how you do so is up to you. Implementing the standard is just one way of doing that. That sounds like doublespeak to me. What other way is there to follow the law besides implementing the standard referenced by the law?

Example: The law says that the pacifier must be made in such a way that it cannot be swallowed.

Your options are: 1. Develop your own way of ensuring that the pacifier cannot be swallowed and prove that it's effective 2. Buy the standard, follow it and prove that you are following it.

Option (2) is generally cheaper. Hence the market for these standards.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#22

Post by ralpht54 »

XODsQToxwi1eOy8 wrote: post #20
Tomte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I know, EU "law" is difficult. I happen to have a little bit of knowledge about that, because I work on safety-related systems in industrial automation, where the same legal mechanisms apply (although "my" directive is 2006/42/EG, not Directive 2001/95/EC). Legally it works like this: 1. The EU issues a directive. Directives are not directly binding (some gray areas have developed over the years) and must be im…

Let me suggest a new law: You have to either factor this product of two 8192 bit primes or implement standard X. It's not incorporation, or is it?

Laws tend to be general. For example a lay might say something like: Communication between two parties needs to be secure. Now, what is secure, how do you define it? Like tomte said you have the burden of proof. One way is to say you followed a standard because standards are formulated by "experts" and thus your communication is clear. An alternative is to develop your own secure algorithm - you might have to proof this at some point that it really is secure.

If a law says that all communication needs to be encrypted using technique x, then it will be outdated as soon as this technique is broken. Thus a law specifying that communication should be secure is something that can last much longer

Besides, this information is very technical and not in the slightest consumer oriented! After looking at the first document I certainly don't want to read further. That is why we have standard bodies, law makers and journalists to do this stuff for is. I don't think that a raw dump would help anybody

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#23

Post by rowyourboat »

XODsQToxwi1eOy8 wrote: post #20
Tomte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I know, EU "law" is difficult. I happen to have a little bit of knowledge about that, because I work on safety-related systems in industrial automation, where the same legal mechanisms apply (although "my" directive is 2006/42/EG, not Directive 2001/95/EC). Legally it works like this: 1. The EU issues a directive. Directives are not directly binding (some gray areas have developed over the years) and must be im…

Let me suggest a new law: You have to either factor this product of two 8192 bit primes or implement standard X. It's not incorporation, or is it?

I agree the situation is not ideal, and I applaud any effort to try to show that the way the law and the standard are intertwined make for a de facto incorporation of the standard into law (which would mean the standard would have to be accessible for free).

It is not clear from the article that that's going on, and it's also not made clear why starting with a copyright violation is a good way to bring about this change. To me, this reeks much more of trying to get publicity than actually trying to change things.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#24

Post by Tomte »

Amadou wrote: post #17
rowyourboat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of this post is that there's a difference between the law and the standard. The law is publicly published, of course. What Malamud did was publish the standard. And, this distinction is important: You have to follow the law, but how you do so is up to you. Implementing the standard is just one way of doing that. So the standard is not, in fact, part of the law, just a shortcut to compliance in some c…

You have to follow the law, but how you do so is up to you. Implementing the standard is just one way of doing that. That sounds like doublespeak to me. What other way is there to follow the law besides implementing the standard referenced by the law?

Ask those who work in fields that don't have a harmonized standard at their disposal.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#25

Post by thomasz »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #12

Worst linkbait title ever? In fact, the entire post ridiculously manipulative. Doctorow is not doing anybody any favors by going into full tin-foil-hat-speak to disguise the facts. "Germany" is not "threatening" anybody. Malamud is getting sued by what is only referred to as the mysterious "the code people". (Which is actually DIN, an internationally well known standardisation institution, not need to refer to them a…

DIN is the German ANSI

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#26

Post by rsingel »

flexie wrote: post #7

If the law mandates use of (privately manufactured) safety mechanisms it doesn't mean that you are entitled to get those safety mechanisms for free. Similarly, if the law mandates that manufacturers comply with certain (privately manufactured) technical standards it doesn't mean that everybody is entitled to get a copy of those standards for free. That being said it is unfortunate that the law refers to non open stan…

What kind of citizen thinks that required legal standards can be private property and uses the word "entitled" to refer to public standards?

The answer: a corporatist with no sense of the notion of public goods.

This generation scares the shit out of me.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#27

Post by chalst »

thomasz wrote: post #25
bowlofpetunias wrote: post #12

Worst linkbait title ever? In fact, the entire post ridiculously manipulative. Doctorow is not doing anybody any favors by going into full tin-foil-hat-speak to disguise the facts. "Germany" is not "threatening" anybody. Malamud is getting sued by what is only referred to as the mysterious "the code people". (Which is actually DIN, an internationally well known standardisation institution, not need to refer to them a…

DIN is the German ANSI

Like ANSI, DIN is not a branch of government, but a self-regulated non-profit institute (an e.V.) Their FAQ describes their relationship to the government:

> What is the role of the government or the European Commission in standardization?

> Standardization is a form of economic self-regulation, relieving the state of the responsibility for developing detailed technical specifications while ensuring that a standard reflects the state of technology. Because the state has an interest in standardization, particularly in the occupational safety and health sectors, it funds DIN projects in sectors which are in the public interest.

http://www.din.de/cmd?cmsrubid=55343&menurubricid=55343&leve...

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#28

Post by belorn »

chalst wrote: post #27
thomasz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DIN is the German ANSI

Like ANSI, DIN is not a branch of government, but a self-regulated non-profit institute (an e.V.) Their FAQ describes their relationship to the government: > What is the role of the government or the European Commission in standardization? > Standardization is a form of economic self-regulation, relieving the state of the responsibility for developing detailed technical specifications while ensuring that a standard r…

So let me see if I understand this right.

The EU has created several safety laws that each countries must follow. The laws then in turn reference proprietary written standards by DIN, which people need to buy in order to actually follow and understand the law.

Is that correct?

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#29

Post by chalst »

belorn wrote: post #28
chalst wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like ANSI, DIN is not a branch of government, but a self-regulated non-profit institute (an e.V.) Their FAQ describes their relationship to the government: > What is the role of the government or the European Commission in standardization? > Standardization is a form of economic self-regulation, relieving the state of the responsibility for developing detailed technical specifications while ensuring that a standard r…

So let me see if I understand this right. The EU has created several safety laws that each countries must follow. The laws then in turn reference proprietary written standards by DIN, which people need to buy in order to actually follow and understand the law. Is that correct?

I don't know about ANSI, but the IEEE is a US non-profit standards body, and you need to buy its standards to claim compliance with them.

This, and fees for testing products, is generally how non-governmental standards institutes fund themselves.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#30

Post by nhaehnle »

rowyourboat wrote: post #11
Amadou wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The body that creates the standards is typically a creation of the industry that implements the standards. It is a cost of doing business. Compare them to RFCs which are quite similar in that they are generally created by authors who work for the companies implementing the RFCs.

That does not make it legal to publish a work without the copyright holder's consent.

Perhaps, but it does make it moral to publish the work.

And law ought to follow morality rather than the other way around.

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