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Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

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Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#11

Post by rowyourboat »

Amadou wrote: post #5
HarryHirsch wrote: post #4

There is a problem: traditionally standardizing bodies finance themselves by selling copies of the standard. I can see why someone might liberate the standards, but they should at least offer up alternative models for financing. The financing model may be obsolete, but the body that issues the standards is not.

The body that creates the standards is typically a creation of the industry that implements the standards. It is a cost of doing business. Compare them to RFCs which are quite similar in that they are generally created by authors who work for the companies implementing the RFCs.

That does not make it legal to publish a work without the copyright holder's consent.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#12

Post by bowlofpetunias »

Worst linkbait title ever? In fact, the entire post ridiculously manipulative. Doctorow is not doing anybody any favors by going into full tin-foil-hat-speak to disguise the facts.

"Germany" is not "threatening" anybody. Malamud is getting sued by what is only referred to as the mysterious "the code people". (Which is actually DIN, an internationally well known standardisation institution, not need to refer to them as some shady gang.) All of this happens to take place in Germany.

The facts are bad enough without this kind of nonsense.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#13

Post by flexie »

DannyBee wrote: post #9
flexie wrote: post #7

If the law mandates use of (privately manufactured) safety mechanisms it doesn't mean that you are entitled to get those safety mechanisms for free. Similarly, if the law mandates that manufacturers comply with certain (privately manufactured) technical standards it doesn't mean that everybody is entitled to get a copy of those standards for free. That being said it is unfortunate that the law refers to non open stan…

"it doesn't mean that everybody is entitled to get a copy of those standards for free." Can you cite some case law for this assertion? At least in the US, every court i'm aware of to confront the issue has decided that if they incorporate a standard by reference into a law, you must be allowed to access it for free, or it cannot be enforced against you. Some even go further, and state it is no longer copyrightable. S…

You are quoting an American ruling. This is a European case.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#14

Post by DannyBee »

flexie wrote: post #13
DannyBee wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"it doesn't mean that everybody is entitled to get a copy of those standards for free." Can you cite some case law for this assertion? At least in the US, every court i'm aware of to confront the issue has decided that if they incorporate a standard by reference into a law, you must be allowed to access it for free, or it cannot be enforced against you. Some even go further, and state it is no longer copyrightable. S…

You are quoting an American ruling. This is a European case.

Please cite any european decision to the contrary to support your decision ...

Germany's official copyright law (which i only have english translations of, so apologies) says:

"(3) The copyright on private collections of standards is not affected by section 1 and 2 if they are referred to in laws, regulations, decrees or official announcements without reproduction of their wording. In this case, the originator is obliged to grant each and every publisher the right to copy and distribute on reasonable terms. If a third party is the holder of the exclusive right to copy and distribute, that party is obliged to grant the license of use in accordance with sentence 2."

I doubt 103 euros per copy is going to be found to be reasonable terms ...

(And if it was not by reference, it would be covered by the sentence one that i didn't copy, which would just make it plain old not copyrightable)

But enough of this, you made an assertion (and not even about german law, mind you, but about 'the law'), it's your job to support it.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#15

Post by rowyourboat »

Amadou wrote: post #10
Tomte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I know, EU "law" is difficult. I happen to have a little bit of knowledge about that, because I work on safety-related systems in industrial automation, where the same legal mechanisms apply (although "my" directive is 2006/42/EG, not Directive 2001/95/EC). Legally it works like this: 1. The EU issues a directive. Directives are not directly binding (some gray areas have developed over the years) and must be im…

In Germany we have implemented this directive Sounds like you are agreeing with Malamud. Regardless of whether or not various certification authorities trust the word of the companies that implement products to match the directive, the directive is the law in Germany. Right?

The entire point of this post is that there's a difference between the law and the standard. The law is publicly published, of course. What Malamud did was publish the standard.

And, this distinction is important: You have to follow the law, but how you do so is up to you. Implementing the standard is just one way of doing that. So the standard is not, in fact, part of the law, just a shortcut to compliance in some cases.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#16

Post by Tomte »

Amadou wrote: post #10
Tomte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I know, EU "law" is difficult. I happen to have a little bit of knowledge about that, because I work on safety-related systems in industrial automation, where the same legal mechanisms apply (although "my" directive is 2006/42/EG, not Directive 2001/95/EC). Legally it works like this: 1. The EU issues a directive. Directives are not directly binding (some gray areas have developed over the years) and must be im…

In Germany we have implemented this directive Sounds like you are agreeing with Malamud. Regardless of whether or not various certification authorities trust the word of the companies that implement products to match the directive, the directive is the law in Germany. Right?

Emphatically no.

First, the Directive itself is not the issue here, the harmonized standards are. Please don't mix it up.

Nobody would sue for copying the text of the Directive.

And second, it's really, really important to understand that only the national law must be followed and that it is not identical to the Directive.

I know it sounds like nitpicking, but this difference is important. Not in the day-to-day development work (because you use Directive and standards as references, but mostly your company-internal process). But as soon as you're dicussing legal matters, it's important.

[edited: fixed typo]

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#17

Post by Amadou »

rowyourboat wrote: post #15
Amadou wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany we have implemented this directive Sounds like you are agreeing with Malamud. Regardless of whether or not various certification authorities trust the word of the companies that implement products to match the directive, the directive is the law in Germany. Right?

The entire point of this post is that there's a difference between the law and the standard. The law is publicly published, of course. What Malamud did was publish the standard. And, this distinction is important: You have to follow the law, but how you do so is up to you. Implementing the standard is just one way of doing that. So the standard is not, in fact, part of the law, just a shortcut to compliance in some c…

You have to follow the law, but how you do so is up to you. Implementing the standard is just one way of doing that.

That sounds like doublespeak to me. What other way is there to follow the law besides implementing the standard referenced by the law?

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#18

Post by hwh »

Amadou wrote: post #10
Tomte wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, I know, EU "law" is difficult. I happen to have a little bit of knowledge about that, because I work on safety-related systems in industrial automation, where the same legal mechanisms apply (although "my" directive is 2006/42/EG, not Directive 2001/95/EC). Legally it works like this: 1. The EU issues a directive. Directives are not directly binding (some gray areas have developed over the years) and must be im…

In Germany we have implemented this directive Sounds like you are agreeing with Malamud. Regardless of whether or not various certification authorities trust the word of the companies that implement products to match the directive, the directive is the law in Germany. Right?

No, and that is made clear in the comment. The directive is the supranational law that mandates nations of the EU to create national law, only this is binding and applicable to citizens.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#19

Post by Amadou »

DannyBee wrote: post #14
flexie wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quoting an American ruling. This is a European case.

Please cite any european decision to the contrary to support your decision ... Germany's official copyright law (which i only have english translations of, so apologies) says: "(3) The copyright on private collections of standards is not affected by section 1 and 2 if they are referred to in laws, regulations, decrees or official announcements without reproduction of their wording. In this case, the originator is obl…

You seem to be correct, for others reading along here is a reference to the law you quoted - starts at the bottom of page 5:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cfr/regulations.gov.docket.0...

However, while that appears to be the law in Germany, that doesn't mean it ought to be the law in Germany (or anywhere else). Sounds like iRights.Law is looking to get that changed.

Re: Germany threatens to jail Carl Malamud for making the law available for free

#20

Post by XODsQToxwi1eOy8 »

Tomte wrote: post #8
Amadou wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And no, it is not incorporated into law, either. Despite what some people usually claim. So you are disputing the part of the article that says: "Every country in the EU is required to implement and publish these standards." I've followed Malamud's work in the USA and there he has been 100% accurate in his claims that the standards he publishes are incorporated into law by reference. You seem to be saying that he's w…

Look, I know, EU "law" is difficult. I happen to have a little bit of knowledge about that, because I work on safety-related systems in industrial automation, where the same legal mechanisms apply (although "my" directive is 2006/42/EG, not Directive 2001/95/EC). Legally it works like this: 1. The EU issues a directive. Directives are not directly binding (some gray areas have developed over the years) and must be im…

Let me suggest a new law: You have to either factor this product of two 8192 bit primes or implement standard X. It's not incorporation, or is it?
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