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25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

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Re: 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

#131

Post by evacuationdrill »

belorn wrote: post #78
reuven wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely believe it. First of all, Stallman isn't known for hiding his opinions, or masking his version of the truth. But beyond that, Stallman has often failed or refused to use technologies that the rest of us take for granted. Years ago, I spoke with him about a proposed bill in the US Congress that would have affected intellectual property laws. (I can't remember the specifics.) At some point, Stallman, who h…

> But to flat-out refuse to read things on the Web As you described it, he did not actually flat-out refuse. He simply stated that he hasn't read all the documented published on the world wide web, since he don't "surf" the web. His approach to the web has been described many times. When someone sends him a link that they want him to read, stallman uses the program wget to download the file and reads it offline.

Has he given his reasoning for that? Does it tie into his privacy concerns? I have read a little about how his computer is air-gapped and such, but I don't remember specifics.

Re: 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

#133

Post by reuven »

koralatov wrote: post #100
belorn wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to flat-out refuse to read things on the Web As you described it, he did not actually flat-out refuse. He simply stated that he hasn't read all the documented published on the world wide web, since he don't "surf" the web. His approach to the web has been described many times. When someone sends him a link that they want him to read, stallman uses the program wget to download the file and reads it offline.

The concerning part with that anecdote is that Stallman dodged the real issue --- reading the bill he was encouraging people to complain about --- by brushing it off because of the medium through which it was available. It's not unreasonable to expect someone to have read, in part at the very least, a bill they're actively campaigning against.

Yup. That's why I remember this conversation as well as I do.

Re: 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

#134

Post by mathattack »

craigching wrote: post #96
mathattack wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does this style of management work for them? I'm not close enough to know if this is all that it takes.

Read the thread of comments, people take him seriously and are discussing the problem. I'd say, in the short term at least, it does work.

Right - but how about the long term?

My experience in the corporate world is things start with momentum, but without a cop managing all the details, things don't get over the finish line.

Does this method get projects over the finish line? I fully understand that it's unproductive to be a cop with high talent volunteers.

Re: 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

#135

Post by pjmlp »

coldtea wrote: post #11
tikhonj wrote: post #5

With inline LaTeX previews, we're already surprisingly close. In fact, I'd say that going all the way would be almost a step back. WYSIWYG is ultimately not an ideal editing paradigm: it wins in the short term, being easy to learn, but drags you down in the long term. I've recently started using Quora a bit more. Unlike StackOverflow, they use a WYSIWYG editor. I've found this significantly less convenient than Stack…

> With inline LaTeX previews, we're already surprisingly close. In fact, I'd say that going all the way would be almost a step back. WYSIWYG is ultimately not an ideal editing paradigm: it wins in the short term, being easy to learn, but drags you down in the long term. That --in the extend that it happens-- is a byproduct of the limitations of current WYSIWYG editors, not something inherent in the idea of WYSIWYG ed…

> It's not like we had a lot of brainstorming and innovating solutions competing in this area (in fact, there are only 3, all too similar, major products: Word, Pages and Open Office, of which one has 90% of the users).

We also had PageMaker, FrameMaker, Word Perfect, Ami Pro.

Re: 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

#136

Post by mathattack »

shubb wrote: post #113
mathattack wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that Stallman lacks a manager's mindset of breaking the vision into manageable pieces, and then delegating them out? Or is it that this is so against the ethos, that he couldn't make it happen with a volunteer workforce?

Well, I guess if you consider his other interests, like the GNU Userland (which is most of what users recognise as linux), the GPL licsense (and generally 'Free Software'), and his part in the opening up of the software/hardware market... I think this was a joke from Stallman. Your comment reads like we can conclude from EMACS going off track that he sucks as a leader. You and I might (quick strongly in my case) disl…

Fair enough. I consider Emacs a success by almost any measure. The question is, "If he wanted it for 25 years, why hasn't it happened?" It could be time and attention. It could be the ethos of working with volunteers.

This isn't coming from a dislike of Free Software per say, more just an appreciation of the challenges of herding cats (volunteers).

Re: 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

#137

Post by pjmlp »

whydo wrote: post #132

Why don't we have both: a WYSIWYG Designer, and a Source code editor? That way you get productive immediately with the designer, yet still have the power to fine-tune every detail using the text editor.

You mean like Oxygen, just to mention one of them?

http://www.oxygenxml.com/xml_editor/WYSIWYG_Editors.html

There are quite a few products already, for those willing to pay for the software they use.

Re: 25 years ago I hoped we would extend Emacs to do WYSIWG word processing

#138

Post by 30thElement »

melling wrote: post #82

Stallman lacks a coherent vision. He has an end goal but he really doesn't have a great plan to get there. It's really frustrating. Emacs could be a lot better. For instance, it has taken forever to get a high-performance Lisp working inside of Emacs. I think Guile is partly there? Anyway, since we'll all be long dead before his plan starts to work, I think the better solution is to support inexpensive software. For…

You misunderstand the point of the FSF. It's free as in freedom, not free as in no money. The whole thing started because rms wanted to modify a printer driver to give functionality their last printer had. He wasn't being stingy, he just wanted his workflow back. The FSF has no problems with charging for software, they have no objection to Red Hat, for instance, charging for the GPL Linux kernel (although they have other problems with Red Hat). The FSF is concerned with users having access to the source, not with everyone being users or non-users having access to the source.
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