Why indie developers can't win on the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#31

Post by fieldforceapp » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 3:56 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #13

Any advice on cheap marketing, or simply how to get the word out? I've tried emailing a few blogs to get reviews, and now I'm trying to use Twitter (@h4labs). I'm building iOS language learning software. The apps could still use work but I think I'm approaching "useful." The one interesting observation that I have is that since I wasn't making many sales at $1.99, I raised my price on Monday to $2.99. As of this morn…

Not marketing advice per se, but I highly recommend subscribing to Hack Design [1] and giving more thought to not just the visual design and presentation of your apps, but also the audience. My personal opinion is that non-game indie devs need a niche, what's yours? If you're selling to school kids, then find a good hook. For example, public middle schools in California require Spanish fluency. Sell to the parents of those kids perhaps? Or if you're going after the international tourist, try to combine the language skills with travel info some how: "We'll teach you Spanish before you're plane lands!"

Also, I'm sure I'm not the first one to say it but you've gotta move to iOS7. Do the easy thing and try using all native color scheme. As a design exercise [2] it will help you focus on content.

Good luck!

[1] http://hackdesign.org/ [2] https://medium.com/design-ux/7348987453e3

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#32

Post by dublinben » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 3:57 PM UTC

runako wrote: post #19

If by "win" you mean "be in the top 5 grossing", there may be some meat here. But it would be surprising for an independent anything to break into the top 5 grossing in any market, software or otherwise, in a few years. But if by "win" you mean "earn a comfortable living and possibly modest riches" then I doubt this thesis has any legs at all.

The top selling album of 2012 was Adele's "21" and she's an independent.

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#33

Post by slazaro » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 3:58 PM UTC

joeconway wrote: post #11

pyamparala wrote: post #2

@nodemaker I think this raises some really interesting points. Based on my experience moderating an exclusive app entrepreneurs group on Facebook I have seen this come numerous times where an indie developer starts a post in frustration complaining how he needs a huge marketing budget to go up in the ranks on App Store. I hope either Tapdaq or somethings else can provide an effective solution for this problem.

What's the group called?

Well it's "exclusive" so I wouldn't expect a straight answer ;)

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#34

Post by coldtea » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 3:59 PM UTC

runako wrote: post #19

If by "win" you mean "be in the top 5 grossing", there may be some meat here. But it would be surprising for an independent anything to break into the top 5 grossing in any market, software or otherwise, in a few years. But if by "win" you mean "earn a comfortable living and possibly modest riches" then I doubt this thesis has any legs at all.

Also, doesn't the "top 5 grossing" list has room only for, well, FIVE top grossing developers, by definition?

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#35

Post by BigBalli » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 4:00 PM UTC

I agree with what other have already said. The main challenge is the noise in the store… way too many crappy apps that still take up space.

However, you need to define "win". Just like in any other business if you want to make millions you need to put in big cash (just look at real estate). If you win by having a revenue that allows you a comfortable life, it's still doable.

I've been an independent developer for 4+ years and have been living on it since. I make mostly passive revenue with my apps and play tennis 2-3 times a week during the day. I certainly will not complain.

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#36

Post by coldtea » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 4:03 PM UTC

dublinben wrote: post #32

runako wrote: post #19

If by "win" you mean "be in the top 5 grossing", there may be some meat here. But it would be surprising for an independent anything to break into the top 5 grossing in any market, software or otherwise, in a few years. But if by "win" you mean "earn a comfortable living and possibly modest riches" then I doubt this thesis has any legs at all.

The top selling album of 2012 was Adele's "21" and she's an independent.

What does "independent" mean in this context?

She released stuff with XL Recordings (a label that had multi-million selling artists even back in the nineties) and then signed with Columbia.

Independent used to be somebody in a small label, like 4AD. Nowadays, it's somebody releasing his songs himself or such.

Adele hasn't qualified as such for over 5 years...

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#37

Post by vegashacker » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 4:08 PM UTC

wturner wrote: post #7

I'm curious if these 'elite' developers budget out a chunk of their profits to buy their own apps and/or free-to-play 'points' simply as a means of keeping their games on the top grossing lists.

I doubt it. What would be the point of paying your way into the top grossing? I'd bet that almost all "normal" users go only to Top Paid (cause that's the default) and Top Free (cause it's free).

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#38

Post by kumarm » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 4:13 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #5

I hate the king.com people. Their mobile app ads are almost malware. They do scammy App Store redirects when you're on certain websites. No, I don't give a shit about candy crush.

I think you should be hating the websites that does this rather than King.com

King.com Explicitly prohibits this (and a number of other things) when they advertise with ad companies. But there are always rogue elements (Probably the said websites in this case) that does these kind of things to drive install rate (and make money from King.com).

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#39

Post by programminggeek » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 4:19 PM UTC

Ok, the reason "indie" devs aren't doing as well is if you aren't ballsy enough to charge enough for their apps for them to be profitable.

Consider the $50 game vs $0.99 game. To make the same money from a dollar game you need to sell 50x as many copies basically. As an indie dev with minimal budget, making money in a market where significant revenue means significant volume, it is going to take a lot of advertising to make a dent.

What the bigger companies have done is made games that are F2P with a much higher value via micro transactions. Their revenue per install might be something like $10 whereas the indie dev who doesn't want to charge as much revenue per install might be closer to $5. That means the people with the higher RPI can advertise more or spend more per install and still be profitable.

It's not unfair to indies so much as it is that indies aren't charging enough to make the numbers work. Also, if indies don't have the cash flow to float that $5 per user over 12 months that it takes to get it, they aren't going to be able to afford the $2.50 CPI.

The same economics play out in many, many businesses. Business is always a game of balancing production, operating, and sales costs against revenue. Whoever is best at that wins.

Maybe indies just aren't very good at business.

Re: Why indie developers can't win on the App Store

#40

Post by dublinben » Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 4:23 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #36

dublinben wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top selling album of 2012 was Adele's "21" and she's an independent.

What does "independent" mean in this context? She released stuff with XL Recordings (a label that had multi-million selling artists even back in the nineties) and then signed with Columbia. Independent used to be somebody in a small label, like 4AD. Nowadays, it's somebody releasing his songs himself or such. Adele hasn't qualified as such for over 5 years...

XL Recordings is a true independent label. It is not owned by a major record label, even indirectly. That's the definition of independent that is used within the music business.

Just because they're incredibly successful, doesn't make them not an independent label. Changing the definition of "indie" to exclude XL makes the claim that 'indies aren't successful' a simple tautology.