Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#241

Post by brazzy » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:07 PM UTC

davidmr wrote: post #223

ma2rten wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me as an European it already crazy enough, that the US even interviews it's own citizens. In the EU if you are an EU citizen you just get waived though at immigration. (At might still get checked later at customs but that is a 1 in 100 chance).

And woe be unto you if you refuse: http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-fed...

Not really a lot of woe I see there. About half an hour of really minor beauocratic harassment. Absolutely nothing compared with what foreigners have gone through.

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#242

Post by AndrewKemendo » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:08 PM UTC

davidmr wrote: post #223

ma2rten wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me as an European it already crazy enough, that the US even interviews it's own citizens. In the EU if you are an EU citizen you just get waived though at immigration. (At might still get checked later at customs but that is a 1 in 100 chance).

And woe be unto you if you refuse: http://knifetricks.blogspot.com/2010/04/i-am-detained-by-fed...

I read the whole thing and then read this part:

>3. This Is About Power, Not Security. The CBP goons want U.S. citizens to answer their questions as a ritualistic bow to their power. Well, CBP has no power over me. I am a law-abiding citizen, and, as such, I am the master, and the federal cops are my servants. They would do well to remember that.

Why would they do well to remember that? Do you have some kind of power that you can press on them? The last I looked CBP/ICE/DHS can legally make your life hell while you are in their control, so I am wondering if there is anything realistically you can do.

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#243

Post by gress » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:10 PM UTC

thomasz wrote: post #209

cstross wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your problem with Trotskyite news sources? I assume most folks here are smart enough to evaluate any given news site on the basis of its accuracy and to differentiate between editorial bias and factual incorrectness. If you really can't bear to see news and opinions from sources you personally disagree with, how are you ever going to test your opinions?

Well, one problem is that publications like the wsws are not news in the strict sense. They do not have the staff and the founding that's necessary to engage in traditional reporting. What those publications are doing is to interpret secondary sources. The article in question does little else than showing us the authors reactions after watching [0]. Some people might find this reaction of the "International Committee…

How is that different from mainstream news outlets publishing articles sourced from Reuters or AP?

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#244

Post by kaybe » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:10 PM UTC

ma2rten wrote: post #192

thaumasiotes wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done a fair amount of back-and-forth between the US and China. On my most recent entry (to the US), the phase 1 guy flagged me to have my carryon manually inspected because I took the trouble to answer his questions honestly (bizarrely, the search did not involve a search of my person, or my checked luggage, so I can't imagine what it was supposed to accomplish). That forced my mother to wait an extra hour to pi…

To me as an European it already crazy enough, that the US even interviews it's own citizens. In the EU if you are an EU citizen you just get waived though at immigration. (At might still get checked later at customs but that is a 1 in 100 chance).

I do however find it slightly irritating that no ID at all is needed to fly from Germany to Sweden. Repeatedly, the only thing needed at all was the number on the e-ticket. Not even a check of whether the ticket was in my name.

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#245

Post by aeturnum » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:11 PM UTC

a3n wrote: post #194

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #67

U.S. Immigration agents are trained to look for certain traits in visitors: nervousness, unusual or inconsistent answers to questions, history of visiting certain countries. Any of these characteristics trigger an automatic escalation in the interrogation process. This individual, albeit sounding perfectly innocent, unfortunately triggered several hot buttons and the hapless agents were too unimaginative, uninformed,…

> I'm sorry that happened to the submitter, and I hope he'll give us another try some day. I hope he doesn't. People need to stop coming here, stop doing business here, otherwise there will be no perceived need to change. The Constitution and just plain decency have not proven enough to stop this shit. Treat us like the backwater shithole that we, by our actions, are aspiring to be. Then maybe we'll change. Otherwise…

Countries that are cut off from the world (even with onerous trade sanctions) do not have a good record of changing their ways. Stories like this push for reform - which is both how we got our awful border controls and how we'll get rid of them.

If nothing else it means that people self-select out of a system that doesn't work for them, meaning the system will never work for them. Not a good way to run things.

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#246

Post by duncans » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:13 PM UTC

eloisant wrote: post #131

toolslive wrote: post #123

My boss (he's European) has 2 passports: one to visit the Arab world, Russia, ... and another for the US. At one point, I went with him to the US and he accidentally grabbed the wrong passport. Bingo! He was stopped and examined in great detail every time: before entering the tax free zone, before boarding, before entering the US.... It was surreal.

France actually lets you have 2 password for "incompatible countries". That's usually for Israel and Arab countries. Maybe they will allow it for Arab countries and US too if this goes on.

Same in the UK. I had two passports for a while, one for travelling to UAE, etc and another for Israel.

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#247

Post by raverbashing » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:13 PM UTC

leoedin wrote: post #240

raverbashing wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hummm I'm not sure, but if you're a citizen of a country, you should enter with the documentation of that country, and entering with another passport is usually a BIG NO-NO Yeah, lasts for a limited time and it costs money, so does the passport of most countries . But it gets you a hassle free entry to YOUR country.

I've traveled into Canada using both my Canadian and UK passports with no issue. Many, many dual citizens choose not to have a passport for both countries because getting one is often hard work. What basis do you say that it's "a BIG NO-NO" to travel into a country you're a citizen of using another country's passport?

The main issue is that, when entering, you are subject to visitor's rules, unless you can prove you're a citizen.

"When entering Australia, all Australians, including those who hold dual nationality, must be able to prove that they are an Australian citizen. An Australian passport is conclusive evidence of a person's identity and citizenship and provides the holder with right of entry to Australia."

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/tips/dual-nationals.html

"When leaving or returning to the United States always present yourself as a US citizen (show your US passport and declare yourself to be a US citizen). "

http://www.newcitizen.us/dual.html

"You can travel on any valid passport, however to re-enter NZ as a citizen of NZ, you must either

show a valid NZ passport at the border"

http://www.dol.govt.nz/immigration/knowledgebase/item/1171

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#248

Post by userulluipeste » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:14 PM UTC

vasilipupkin wrote: post #121

jballanc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think these are isolated experiences? Yes, the article and the parent comment each highlight a specific case, but as someone who's had to re-enter the US multiple times in the past 2 years I can vouch that these are not isolated incidences.

62 million international tourists visited the United States last year and this number has grown over 2011. This makes me think that on average border policy is such that it is possible to navigate the system and not give up on entering the U.S. for good. Having said that, it's clearly regrettable when border agents behave inappropriately

But it's not only the border agents. The same can be said for example about consulate officers when deciding to give or decline a visa. It's the same attitude, you are considered a future felon unless proven otherwise, you are fingerprinted even if it is not known yet if you'll ever step on US soil or not, you are interviewed like a convict that is to be amnestied out of jail, and whatnot. I mean - hey, I'm just predisposed to visit your country as your Hollywood makes a pretty damn good job promoting it, and I have more than enough money to fund my visit there - that's all the info I consider reasonable to provide you with. And you know what? That's all it was necessary to visit other places like Australia, Iceland or China!

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#249

Post by ma2rten » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:16 PM UTC

I hope I step on no ones toes here, but I am becoming more and more convinced that USA is simply a less developed country than Western Europe and Canada.

- At least until recently people would still go bankrupt because of medical emergencies.

- People have to save for lifetime to send their children to collage.

- Politics is populistic.

- The legal system is unjust in some areas (e.g. legal defense against bogus charges can drive you into bankruptcy).

- Immigration decisions are arbitrary and unpredictable.

- Business has a large(r) influence in the government.

I am currently staying in Thailand and since I do so I have developed a better understanding of what it means to be poor and what it means for country to be developed. If you are poor, most of the times you basic needs are still covered, but you are facing great unpredictability. A less developed country, is thus a country that can not provide certainty to it's citizens. For instance, I know of people here in Thailand who have gone from very rich (having a chauffeur on staff) to poor (sawing in a factory). I also just saw a documentary about a town in Mexico where many people life in constant fear to get kidnapped or killed and reporting to the police would actually make them a target. I could give endless examples. But I guess the point is, the US has some characteristics that normally a developed economy does not have, but which you would normally find in an emerging one.

EDIT: I am not saying that the US is an emerging economy. Most emerging economies have much graver problems than the ones I listed above.

Re: Why I Will Never Go Back to the United States

#250

Post by Amadou » Tue, Nov 19, 2013, 4:29 PM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #244

ma2rten wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me as an European it already crazy enough, that the US even interviews it's own citizens. In the EU if you are an EU citizen you just get waived though at immigration. (At might still get checked later at customs but that is a 1 in 100 chance).

I do however find it slightly irritating that no ID at all is needed to fly from Germany to Sweden. Repeatedly, the only thing needed at all was the number on the e-ticket. Not even a check of whether the ticket was in my name.

That's the way things ought to be.