Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#121

Post by jerf » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:15 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #78

tokenadult wrote: post #36

You are working on something important, and I was glad to read (and upvote) a lot of the other comments you received, and especially the offers for pro-bono help. One comment below suggested that you read the literature (I presume that means the literature about suicide prevention) and I would second that advice. To expand that advice a bit, I'll note that Martin E. P. Seligman and some other psychologists who have s…

I'm curious as to what you are saying here. Poor self esteem is healthier? People shouldn't have self esteem, positive or negative? Or they should, but we should ignore it?

Goals aren't results. A movement with the stated goal of "increasing self esteem" is not guaranteed to actually increase self-esteem, nor is there any guarantee that the only effect of the movement will be on self-esteem. Further, the stated reasons the movement had for increasing self-esteem are themselves goals of the movement, which are also not results; nothing guarantees that increased self-esteem will actually have the results those who were in the movement believe, nor that those would be the only results.

(This is one of those things that when I say it, it sounds trivial, but I observe that there is a very pervasive cognitive bias to assume that stated goals === results, in a wide variety of contexts.)

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#122

Post by dspeyer » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:15 PM UTC

itistoday2 wrote: post #80

tokenadult wrote: post #36

You are working on something important, and I was glad to read (and upvote) a lot of the other comments you received, and especially the offers for pro-bono help. One comment below suggested that you read the literature (I presume that means the literature about suicide prevention) and I would second that advice. To expand that advice a bit, I'll note that Martin E. P. Seligman and some other psychologists who have s…

I second the advice to familiarize yourself with the literature, and would like to add a strong word of caution at the same time. A disclaimer: I speak out of personal experience with this topic, and I did not read most of the comments that you've already received (sorry, wish I had the time). So here's my word of caution: You must be aware that you are intentionally brainwashing yourself into a biased worldview by r…

Empirically, most suicides have more to do with corrupted thinking processes than a negative total life value expectation. Often the corrupted thinking process can be directly observed without knowledge of the suicide attempt. Often, people who are prevented from suicide are later grateful in ways that are unlikely to be faked.

I don't see much that an anti-suicide app could do in the cases where it is a rational decision, whereas it probably could provide relevant information and perspective to people who need it. So that sounds like an overall good thing (so long as it doesn't invoke forced hospitalization or drug changes or other backfiring interventions).

http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/25/in-defense-of-psych-tre...

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#123

Post by ancarda » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:17 PM UTC

saturdayplace wrote: post #100

ancarda wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does he have any experience with suicides? Has he lost anyone or felt suicidal himself? People who have know how difficult it is. The app was described as a "social network". As someone who has experience with suicide (both from my perspective and from losing people), I have to question what a difference that will make. How exactly does it work? If he can't explain, perhaps a mockup of the UI might answer a lot of qu…

So, it's probably not realistic to assume this particular app will help. The chance that it will make an actual difference is probably pretty low. Is that reason enough to dismiss the idea? Or to dismiss "apps" entirely as a possible tool for helping suicidal people? I said this below, but unless suicide is an area where you have more potential to cause harm than to do good, it seems like a worthwhile direction to sp…

>Is that reason enough to dismiss the idea?

Usually, no. But we're not dealing with "will my photo sharing startup succeed?"

>unless suicide is an area where you have more potential to cause harm than to do good

It's extremely difficult to give good advice to a suicidal person. Almost everything can be interpreted as negative. Your dealing with someone who is in a dangerous mind set. Even telling someone "it'll get better" can make it worse. This is why I stressed the importance of experience.

Some information: http://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/comments/1cep2h/psa_wha...

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#124

Post by ancarda » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:21 PM UTC

krrishd wrote: post #97

throwsaway wrote: post #38

Suicide prevention /app/? You don't stop suicide with an app. You're 15 and you have a grant for a gimmick. I'm 22 and I'm unemployed. I'm already depressed but this makes me angry, too, so I just made an account to let you know that this disgusts me. Empty words. At least your resume looks better with this.

I'm sorry that his makes you feel this way. 1. I am in no way experienced with suicide, I just thought this idea up for a contest, but it actually won, and I felt the obligation to at least try to make it a reality. 2. This app is not really aimed at people already dealing with severe stages of depression, many organizations and suicide hotlines are already doing that well. This is more towards people only starting t…

>I'm just trying to help out in any way that I could possibly

I'd strongly advise you message the mods in /r/SuicideWatch. They can advise you on what to do, they're great people. If you don't, you could easily end up doing more harm than good.

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#125

Post by jodrellblank » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:22 PM UTC

itistoday2 wrote: post #80

tokenadult wrote: post #36

You are working on something important, and I was glad to read (and upvote) a lot of the other comments you received, and especially the offers for pro-bono help. One comment below suggested that you read the literature (I presume that means the literature about suicide prevention) and I would second that advice. To expand that advice a bit, I'll note that Martin E. P. Seligman and some other psychologists who have s…

I second the advice to familiarize yourself with the literature, and would like to add a strong word of caution at the same time. A disclaimer: I speak out of personal experience with this topic, and I did not read most of the comments that you've already received (sorry, wish I had the time). So here's my word of caution: You must be aware that you are intentionally brainwashing yourself into a biased worldview by r…

If you are suicidal and someone tells you that action 'X' will convince you to change your views and want to go on living, why would you 'take action X'?

The result 'want to go on living' is not a goal you want to reach.

(Where 'X' might be phoning a helpline, downloading an app, talking to a therapist, doing a thought experiment).

But that doesn't mean your desire to commit suicide is valid and coherent and respectable. We, the living, agree that living is better than non-living, that happiness is better than sadness, and that health is better than illness.

When someone is too ill to physically take care of themselves, we take over and act where possible "in their best interests" until they recover.

When someone is suicidal, they don't want to go on living, and offering help isn't enough because they won't reach out and take it. The only respectable act on our part is to consider them incapable and take over control of their life, assume their best interest is 'survival' and help them towards that.

anyone in this thread who supports your cause, a terrorist and/or sadist. I will accuse you of in fact not helping people, but misguidedly (due to complete and utter ignorance on your part) torturing people by encouraging them to experience more suffering.

Why would you assume that the goal would be to dump the person right into a life of suffering, instead of to help them out of the suffering as well? Current suicide prevention interventions don't always help as much as they could, but that's rather because they are implemented poorly than because they want people to suffer.

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#126

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:23 PM UTC

itistoday2 wrote: post #80

tokenadult wrote: post #36

You are working on something important, and I was glad to read (and upvote) a lot of the other comments you received, and especially the offers for pro-bono help. One comment below suggested that you read the literature (I presume that means the literature about suicide prevention) and I would second that advice. To expand that advice a bit, I'll note that Martin E. P. Seligman and some other psychologists who have s…

I second the advice to familiarize yourself with the literature, and would like to add a strong word of caution at the same time. A disclaimer: I speak out of personal experience with this topic, and I did not read most of the comments that you've already received (sorry, wish I had the time). So here's my word of caution: You must be aware that you are intentionally brainwashing yourself into a biased worldview by r…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#127

Post by captainbenises » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:24 PM UTC

Ignore the crazy motherfuckers in this thread, jesus. Like I said on reddit, use phonegap, angular and maybe a simple ruby on rails backend if you need something on the server. That'll be the easiest way to build the app, and you'll develop great marketable skills.

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#128

Post by dspeyer » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:25 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #82

superuser2 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious as to what you are saying here. Poor self esteem is healthier? People shouldn't have self esteem, positive or negative? Or they should, but we should ignore it?

I think he's saying that falsely implanted self-esteen, a la "everyones a unique special winner!", is a problem. When everyone is told over and over again while growing up that they are great and their self-esteem is artificially inflated, they inevitably experience some amount of cognitive dissonance and maybe even depression at the realization somewhere down the road that they're probably not as unique, special, ta…

> I think he's saying that falsely implanted self-esteen, a la "everyones a unique special winner!", is a problem.

I certainly hated that growing up. It was years before I could believe I had done anything right, because people would say the same things either way.

But I think tokenadult was actually proposing something else: not focusing on oneself so much. Much like CS Lewis's concept of humility: "could create the greatest cathedral in the world, know it is the best, and rejoice in the fact that it is the most wondrous of all cathedrals; without being any more or less glad that he created it than he would be if someone else had created the cathedral."

Or to take another CS Lewis quote: "And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself." Focusing on self-esteem instead of the goal or substance at hand is shutting a creature within the dungeon of its own mind. That really is a great phrase for it.

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#129

Post by ancarda » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:27 PM UTC

saturdayplace wrote: post #96

throwsaway wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggesting to anyone serious about suicide that an app will help is insulting. You have to be naive and unwilling to understand or a megalomaniac to think an app will help.

I'm definitely willing to be labeled naive. Would suggesting a call to a suicide hotline be as insulting? What if the app carries out similar functions as a hotline? Please, I'm not trying to troll, just trying to understand why the idea of this app is so repugnant. Also, while this specific app may not be able to help, doesn't it seem at least possible that some app, some day might? It seems prematurely dismissive t…

>Would suggesting a call to a suicide hotline be as insulting?

That depends a lot on context. In some cases, yes.

>What if the app carries out similar functions as a hotline?

Who would you talk to? A volunteer? What happens when 4chan gets their hands on this app?

>Unless suicide is a case where you're likely to do more harm than good

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6757098

As for displaying a hotline number, you can find that information on Google. Literally search "suicide" and the first thing listed is a phone number you can call for help. If the app is just a number of a suicide hotline, then it's a pretty pointless app.

What may be more useful is a collection of services and communities (ie. suicide hotlines by state/country, communities like /r/SuicideWatch, general information). However, that sounds a lot like a website and not an app.

Re: Ask HN: I'm 15, won a grant to develop a suicide prevention app, what next?

#130

Post by aestra » Mon, Nov 18, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

krrishd wrote: post #97

throwsaway wrote: post #38

Suicide prevention /app/? You don't stop suicide with an app. You're 15 and you have a grant for a gimmick. I'm 22 and I'm unemployed. I'm already depressed but this makes me angry, too, so I just made an account to let you know that this disgusts me. Empty words. At least your resume looks better with this.

I'm sorry that his makes you feel this way. 1. I am in no way experienced with suicide, I just thought this idea up for a contest, but it actually won, and I felt the obligation to at least try to make it a reality. 2. This app is not really aimed at people already dealing with severe stages of depression, many organizations and suicide hotlines are already doing that well. This is more towards people only starting t…

>many organizations and suicide hotlines are already doing that well.

These organizations are for much more than that. The National Suicide Prevention Line is there for your "smaller" problems too. There are more, too. Best of all, these are trained professionals, not 15 year olds.