Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

aclu.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

491–500 of 513 posts

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#491

Post by mpyne »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #317
waps wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep wondering how people can possibly defend what Snowden did. He used social engineering exploits in his job as sysadmin on a large scale, then published the resulting information. He apparently even compromised personal accounts of the people he was supposed to help. Are we seriously suggesting letting people do this if they think the goal is just ? It seems so. I shudder to think what the consequences of that w…

I keep wondering how people can possibly defend the government's conduct. >Are we seriously suggesting letting people do this Do what? Expose evidence of government corruption? It is written in the law that this is exactly the case. There are numerous examples of the failure of the laws meant to protect us from this scenario. > if they think the goal is just ? It seems so. There is no justice in following unjust laws…

> Do what? Expose evidence of government corruption? It is written in the law that this is exactly the case.

The law does not permit breaking the law to further expose corruption though. That is the role of an appointed (and trained!) inspector general. Or, if necessary, a special prosecutor.

It would be one thing to reveal evidence of wrongdoing that one happens to fall into as part of their normal duties. Going further beyond that is illegal for good reason, as otherwise those who are impersonating high-ranking officials for purposes of espionage would be literally indistinguishable from those impersonating the same officials for to "dig for dirt".

Put another way, if your logic applied Google would have not merely the right, but the obligation to constantly scour through their GMail archives, G+ private messages, and everything else they have access to, for evidence of wrongdoing. Is it your position that Google should be doing this?

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#492

Post by rayiner »

sologoub wrote: post #484
rayiner wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans are fascinated with race. Americans are fascinated with race because our cities look like this: http://www.radicalcartography.net/chicagodots_race_big.jpg . Moreover, it's hardly unique to Americans. Racial and ethnic conflicts are common across the whole world. The U.S. is still dealing with a legacy of slavery and desegregation that ended only recently. When the Governor of Alabama promised "segregation…

I'm afraid you are missing my point. History is history, what happened happened and there isn't anything we can do about it. My point is simply that non-discrimination policies without tangible focus on economic wellbeing is meaningless and will have zero impact. Yes, on average black population is at an economic disadvantage when compared to white. Yes, there are historic reasons for that. But the problem is not tha…

> History is history, what happened happened and there isn't anything we can do about it.

We can't change history, but that doesn't mean we can't look to history to understand how the present got to be the way it is. Moreover, just because history has happened and we can't change it doesn't mean it doesn't have ongoing repercussions.

> But the problem is not that they were disadvantaged, but that they stay disadvantaged, much of it through somewhat self-sustaining social processes.

The problem is that they were enslaved, and then actively repressed. Those are facts that have repercussions in the present. Anecdote: my grandfather was trained as both a doctor and a lawyer, and was a wealthy man. My family didn't inherit any money, but my mom inherited an education from a private tutor and I grew up hearing about him and being shaped by those stories. Well the grandfathers of black people alive today were systematically repressed, denied education and denied economic advancement. What kind of stories do black kids grow up hearing, and how do those stories shape them in the present? The problem goes far beyond economic disadvantage. It's one thing to prevent a group of people from accumulating capital. It's another to destroy their social structures, actively prevent them from bettering themselves, and use the authority of the state to segregate them from the majority population. That results in cultural devastation that goes far deeper than simple economic loss.

> The three strikes law hurts these communities the most not because they are black, but because the economic situation is such that people are compelled to steal or commit other crimes.

Crime isn't a simple function of economic status. There is a wide variety of crime rates within communities of identical economic status. Crime is a function of social cohesion, the vitality of social structures, community respect for authority, trust, etc. Those things are deeply tied up in race as a result of the legacy of segregation. You don't think there is a difference between a poor black community and a poor white community when it comes to respect for authority? When that authority was, until just a few decades ago, fighting tooth and nail to maintain segregation and repression?

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#493

Post by trefk »

silverbax88 wrote: post #419
fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy makes some good points about the unfairness of how DUI suspects are treated: (full disclosure, he is a criminal defense atty) http://www.duicentral.com/dui/the-dui-exception/ TL;DR Breathalyzers are based on dubious science, system is unfairly tilted in favor of conviction. Guilt is presumed & punishment issued even before trial.

Fantastic. I wish they were put behind bars even longer. I have no sympathy for people who drink and drive, and no sympathy for people who text and drive. I cannot tolerate anyone who would plow around our roads in a 2,000 pound bullet and either be drunk or looking at their phone.

Are you aware that people can be convicted of DUI for such things as sleeping in your car while drunk, or standing 10 feet from your car with keys in your pocket while drunk?

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#494

Post by mercurial »

PeterisP wrote: post #401
oscargrouch wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One of the most basic principles of system design is that there will be edge cases. Every engineer knows that. In a country with 300 million people, enough will fall into these edge cases for the ACLU to put together a pamphlet with a few examples. That's inevitable. What if you are the next edge case in this system? with nobody to remember that you even exist, if its fair.. Just one person beiyng this edge case is…

No, one person being the edge case is definitely not enough to put the whole system down. If we get, say, 1000 edge cases every year - then it's completely acceptable unless you can provide another system that will have much less edge cases. And if you're not sure, you don't switch until you are sure. If you simply "switch off" the system, then you get random 'mob justice' which whill have much more problems than the…

The big difference here is, mandatory minimum sentencing is an aberration which is engineered from the start to create more injustice. There is a reason that in a normal case, sentencing takes the history of the individual and the circumstances of the crime into account, instead of following a rulebook saying "Theft: 5 years in prison, no early release".

Three-strike laws exist to quench the mob's appetite for blood (as public execution is sadly no longer acceptable, the mob has to settle for life sentences), and get politicians get elected on a fearmongering & repression platform. But on a humane level, it's not far removed from judicial amputations.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#495

Post by smm2000 »

mml wrote: post #476
smm2000 wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what felony conviction can you get in the course of regular life? I do not have a single friend who was threatened with one much less was convicted.

It's really not that complicated. Piss off the right person, and you may find yourself getting pulled over on some deserted road where officer Clancy "discovers" a felonious amount of a controlled substance concealed in your car or on your person.

I guess your life is way more interesting than mine. You can also add that NSA will tap your phone/email/web activity and find child porn, CIA will track all your foreign trips to find that you talked to Bin Laden and PETA will report that you feloniously tortured puppies.

Vast majority of white/asian people in this country are so far removed from that life that chance of getting underserved felony is as likely as getting hit by lightning. It can happen but definitely not three times in the row.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#496

Post by jackmaney »

enko wrote: post #349
reginaldjcooper wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple DUIs do deserve a severe punishment IMO, because that is attempted murder basically and they are a danger to the public. The rest I agree are ridiculous. Huffing drugs three times does not deserve permanent incarceration.

> that is attempted murder basically Oh come on. I've lost my license for what you'd call DUI - made a stupid decision to drive the 1.5km back home from a pub, got a 1 year ban and a hefty fine. Yes, it was a stupid thing to do and I deserve what I got, but attempted murder ? Don't be ridiculous. At most repeated DUI is criminal negligence, and negligence on the part of whomever supplied the offender with the vehicle…

Only a year? Unfortunately, you were lucky.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#497

Post by notahacker »

was_hellbanned wrote: post #473
enko wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not so sure it is such a good analogy. The "business model" of these hawkers in third world countries like Cambodia or Laos is to explicitly present themselves as impoverished, and then pressure or guilt-trip you into buying something from them as a gesture of charity. The OP seemed to encourage such behaviour, even admitted it was "crap" they were selling (it is). I'd suggest that any startup worth its salt is…

> to explicitly present themselves as impoverished That's not the least bit true, in my experience. I've watched them come over from where their families are working and attempt to sell trinkets, then go back to their families (or friends' families). As for "crap", yeah, it's crap. Because you don't give children appliances and automobiles to sell. It's no different than the stuff you'll buy from American children go…

Do you have a source for the Ko Phi Phi claim (reason I ask is genuine curisoity: I had a long conversation with a Thai bar owner a couple of years ago where he observed that one of the attractions of Phi Phi is that unlike Phuket or Samui, it wasn't mafia run). The mafia "protected" parts of the Thai tourist industry still employ lots of working class Thais, not to mention the Burmese diaspora.

The wider issue with buying stuff off Cambodian street urchins is that you really don't want to encourage a state of affairs where the most aggressive child beggars/vendors earn far more than their parents... and then need kids of their own once they hit their mid-teens and no longer appeal to tourists' sympathies.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#498

Post by randallsquared »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #469
silverbax88 wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you get drunk and get behind the wheel of a car, it's the same to me as walking around with a loaded gun and firing randomly. Does it matter that you didn't set out to shoot someone?

Unfortunately, this is not the case. You still are conscious of your decisions when you walk into a bar and fire randomly. There is a reason its considered rape if you have sex with someone who is intoxicated; they can no longer provide consent. The no longer have the ability to reason for themselves. Are we going to argue that you're a murder if you drink to excess while your keys are still in your pocket? Because t…

"At that point, it's not you making the decision."

Well, no. Turns out that alcohol's effect on behavior is strongly dependent on culture and/or expectations:

http://www.sirc.org/publik/drinking3.html#_VPID_5

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#500

Post by thecodeore »

smm2000 wrote: post #495
mml wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not that complicated. Piss off the right person, and you may find yourself getting pulled over on some deserted road where officer Clancy "discovers" a felonious amount of a controlled substance concealed in your car or on your person.

I guess your life is way more interesting than mine. You can also add that NSA will tap your phone/email/web activity and find child porn, CIA will track all your foreign trips to find that you talked to Bin Laden and PETA will report that you feloniously tortured puppies. Vast majority of white/asian people in this country are so far removed from that life that chance of getting underserved felony is as likely as ge…

That is because the Vast majority of white/asian people are simple sheeple doing what their masters in government tell them to do, never rocking the boat, never expressing any opinions.

When government says Jump, they respond with "How high master" , the government says "Give me 50% of your labor" they say "Yes Master"

The vast majority of people, not even white/asian, just people, are useless sheep being lead complacently to slaughter

Post reply on HN