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A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

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Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#211

Post by anigbrowl »

clarky07 wrote: post #98
anigbrowl wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theft is a bad thing but hardly deserving of a life sentence, even with a history of burglary. The economic cost of this crime is at most a few thousand $, probably much less. The economic cost of incarcerating the guy for 30-40 years is going to be a few million.

depends on where he is. cost of prisons varies wildly by state and city, which i find to be a bit bizarre. According to some quick research, it can be as low as 13k a year (Louisiana) to as high as 47k a year (California) and even on smaller levels 167k (New York City). 30 years in Louisiana is just over 2 years in new york city.

True, but bear in mind that elder/end of life medical care tends to be especially expensive, so I think the total is realistic.

I don't find it so odd that cost varies - consider land price, cost of living (for prison staff), heating (much more expensive in northerly latitudes), and so on.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#212

Post by eropple »

clarky07 wrote: post #155
neeee wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If someone commits three consecutive rapes...well, who would complain about locking him up forever? I would. The primary purpose of prisons should be rehabilitation. Giving life sentences doesn't take into account that people can change.

So what is a reasonable punishment for a serial rapist? Seems to me that no one should get the chance to be convicted of rape 3 times. They should have been locked up before that 3rd one happened. I might, might let you out at some point after 1. After 2, screw you. You clearly didn't learn and you are a danger to society.

> So what is a reasonable punishment for a serial rapist?

Forced placement in a facility for treating mental illness until his doctors determine he is sufficiently well to be reintegrated into society, followed by a public-service program as societal (note: not personal) recompense for his actions. That would be after the first time, though, not the third. Because this person needs help and is plainly not getting it--and he will never get help in an American prison.

But because enough people are more interested in vengeance than justice--and your posts pretty firmly demonstrate that you're in that camp--it will never, ever happen.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#213

Post by [deleted] »

clarky07 wrote: post #179
meric wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking and entering: $1000's of damage, per instance. Insider trading: $100,000's of damage, per instance. Enforcement level of insider trading is also low, so a person can commit many more times the crime of insider trading before they're caught.

Breaking and entering - very traumatic to someone. insider trading - traumatic to no one. I'm not sure what these "damages" you speak of are. Someone wanted to buy or sell stock, and an insider bought or sold it. Sure, they have more information, but someone always has more or different information. carl icahn and warren buffett have more information than me about a lot of things. yet we trade on the same market ever…

[deleted]

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#214

Post by clarky07 »

avenger123 wrote: post #198
clarky07 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you clearly don't know me at all. I have a cousin that has stolen large sums of money from and threatened bodily harm to my grandma along with several other convictions that i'd like to stay in prison for a long time. I've got an uncle that I have similar feelings for. Also, you should re-read what I wrote. I also said that perhaps these don't deserve life, but "a long time" does seem reasonable. Finally, how is secu…

You are right, I do not know you. Anyways, let's agree to disagree on this.

ah quick edit there. I'll leave my response below. We can agree to disagree, but let me make a few more points first :-) I'll be civil I promise.

He didn't get life for stealing the truck. he got life for stealing the truck in addition to the 2 other convictions. It's also not "any severity," but felony level severity. You can argue that the line in the sand has been drawn in the wrong place, but the line in the sand is for bad offenses. Stealing a chocolate bar is not a felony, it is a misdemeanor (pretty much everywhere as far as I can tell. Generally speaking, shoplifting is not a felony until is it several hundred dollars worth, usually $500).[1]

You can argue that the "felony" label is too broadly applied to things that aren't "that bad." You can argue that life is too harsh of a punishment. Those are reasonable arguments. But in general, felonies are "severe" and not comparable to speeding tickets or chocolate bars.

>Realistically if the first two strikes were horrendous the person would already be put in jail for life and a long time. There would be no opportunity for a third strike. By your logic, the courts got it wrong the first two times and now they are getting it right with the life sentence.

I'd say it's more along the lines of we'll give you a couple chances, but only a couple. 1, go to jail for awhile and think about what you've done. 2, I told you not to do that and you kept doing it anyways think about it longer. 3. Dude, seriously. We warned you, and now we've had enough.

Some felonies on their own are in fact worthy of life. Murder someone and you generally get life. They idea behind 3 strikes is that on their own maybe they aren't worth that long of a sentence, but they are bad and we gave you several chances.

>Also, I am sorry, personally for me 20-30 years in jail is as good as life.

perhaps. how about 10-15? I have no idea what the "right" amount of time for any crime is. All I'm suggesting is that it isn't that unreasonable to have that time scale for people who repeatedly prove that they aren't being productive members of society.

[1] - http://examples.yourdictionary.com/what-are-examples-of-felo...

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#215

Post by pandaman »

kayoone wrote: post #184
thaumasiotes wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two points: - Driving below the speed of surrounding traffic is much more likely to cause an accident than driving at a "high" speed. The speed of traffic is essentially always above the speed limit. (Which might itself give you pause in characterizing it as "reckless, dangerous driving".) - Reckless, dangerous driving is an independent offense, which can be (and is) charged separately from speeding.

Oh come on... Speeding clearly implies more risk, in the case of an impact (in the city for example) the end result can be much worse. On the other hand a guy who has comitted 2-3 non violent crimes in his life because hes probably broke and has mental issues. I am not saying thats ok, but spending the life in prison for that? He wouldnt even have to go to prison for that in the country i live in.

Burglary is punished so severely because, like you said, the end result can be much worse than just stealing property. Can you honestly say that chances of speeding causing any harm what so ever are comparable to chances of burglary turning into an assault, rape or murder?

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#216

Post by beloch »

fleitz wrote: post #183
beloch wrote: post #149

The U.S. and Canada have very similar cultures, so comparisons here have some meaning. The U.S.'s per capita incarceration rate is 6.28 times Canada's [1] and the per capita number of police officers is 1.26 times higher in the U.S.[2]. However, the intentional homicide rate of the U.S. is 2.94 times that of Canada[3]. Certain types of offenses (e.g. drug offenses) are higher in Canada, but the violent crime rate is…

I worked in the poorest postal code in Canada ( http://goo.gl/maps/hzKct here's how bad it gets, this intersection is called Wastings and Pain by many), it's a walk in the park compared to the bad neighbourhoods of many US cities. I've never felt like I was in the 3rd world in Canada, there are parts of the US that make you wonder... We generally take care of our people and don't use the prison system as part of the…

I'm afraid I have to call BS on the ol' "Blame Harper" schtick. The Conservatives, Liberals, and NDP all have exactly the same platforms and would likely be doing exactly the same thing if in power. Canada's political parties have stopped running on the merit of policy and are running purely on the basis of personality. It's really starting to annoy me.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#217

Post by clarky07 »

eropple wrote: post #212
clarky07 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what is a reasonable punishment for a serial rapist? Seems to me that no one should get the chance to be convicted of rape 3 times. They should have been locked up before that 3rd one happened. I might, might let you out at some point after 1. After 2, screw you. You clearly didn't learn and you are a danger to society.

> So what is a reasonable punishment for a serial rapist? Forced placement in a facility for treating mental illness until his doctors determine he is sufficiently well to be reintegrated into society, followed by a public-service program as societal (note: not personal) recompense for his actions. That would be after the first time, though, not the third. Because this person needs help and is plainly not getting it-…

You are suggesting that everyone who has ever committed rape is mentally ill. That seems like a stretch to me. I'd suggest there are a lot of people that are simply bad people who like to have forceful sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with them. I also don't think all murderers are mentally ill. Some people just have a motive and are willing to cross a line.

I'm not interested in vengeance, and nothing about my post suggested I am. I don't want people who are a danger to society to continue to be a danger to society. If I was one of the people interested in vengeance, I'd have said something like they should get raped repeatedly with a broom in prison. I didn't, I just said they should be locked up. Nothing vengeful about that at all. I just want them to not be near my loved ones.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#218

Post by eropple »

clarky07 wrote: post #217
eropple wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what is a reasonable punishment for a serial rapist? Forced placement in a facility for treating mental illness until his doctors determine he is sufficiently well to be reintegrated into society, followed by a public-service program as societal (note: not personal) recompense for his actions. That would be after the first time, though, not the third. Because this person needs help and is plainly not getting it-…

You are suggesting that everyone who has ever committed rape is mentally ill. That seems like a stretch to me. I'd suggest there are a lot of people that are simply bad people who like to have forceful sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with them. I also don't think all murderers are mentally ill. Some people just have a motive and are willing to cross a line. I'm not interested in vengeance, and nothing a…

Being "willing to cross a line" is mental illness. It's the fucking definition of antisocial personality disorder. Get them the help they need, train them to be productive members of society (like we should for everyone), and guess what? The problem goes away. You will certainly have an incurable segment of the population who, after actually being treated by professionals and educated, cannot integrate with society--but it's not going to be a third of the population of black males being locked away for at least part of their lives and being primed for further criminality by their experiences in prison.

Putting someone in a concrete box where one's safety is utterly left up to chance is nothing but vengeful and retaliatory. It is designed to inflict misery and nothing else. It saddens me that this obvious fact escapes so many of my fellow Americans but I've become resigned to the fact that those of us with privilege are just kind of shitty human beings when it comes to anybody unlike us.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#219

Post by clarky07 »

avenger123 wrote: post #198
clarky07 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you clearly don't know me at all. I have a cousin that has stolen large sums of money from and threatened bodily harm to my grandma along with several other convictions that i'd like to stay in prison for a long time. I've got an uncle that I have similar feelings for. Also, you should re-read what I wrote. I also said that perhaps these don't deserve life, but "a long time" does seem reasonable. Finally, how is secu…

You are right, I do not know you. Anyways, let's agree to disagree on this.

also, fwiw I probably agree with you that the line on felony should be moved in some cases, specifically related to drug offenses. I do think that many of the things in the article should very much be felonies. specifically the breaking and entering and the "inadvertent killing" seem reasonable.

Re: A living death: Sentenced to die behind bars for what?

#220

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