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Coin

onlycoin.com

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Re: Coin

#631

Post by vidarh »

drivers99 wrote: post #304
the_economist wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go weeks at a time without getting asked for identification when paying with a credit card. Most merchants will happily swipe the coin and move on with their life. Those that question it can still check ID or make a copy of the driver's license. This is a sweet product and I can't wait to dump the 7 cards in my wallet. One extra backup card, a good thing to have regardless, will take care of the occasional merchant…

Merchants aren't allowed by their merchant agreements to require your id in order to accept a credit card. They are supposed to check your signature. https://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Alert-FS15.htm

They are not asked to accept a credit card in the case of Coin. They are asked to accept a device that contains an unauthorised reproduction of the mag-stripe contents of a credit card.

Re: Coin

#632

Post by vidarh »

mcv wrote: post #607
bloopletech wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Australia, we've even moved beyond EMV; the majority of merchants now accept Visa PayWave and MasterCard PayPass for tap-and-go. [edit: Oh, and all my debit/credit cards are now paywave/paypass enabled, and they are all from the big 4/5 banks] The Coin page doesn't mention this at all; does it have this? If not, it sounds like a step backwards.

I don't know much about PayWave and PayPass, but this actually sounds even less secure than credit cards. And it still relies on the big two. Sounds like a step in the wrong direction. It's not about convenience, it's about security and reliability. That's the direction we need to take.

It's less secure than chip and pin credit cards, but it does require the presence of an object that can execute the right encryption operations with the right private keys, which makes it more secure than easily cloned mag-stripe cards. Because it is less secure, there's typically a low transaction limit (in the UK 15-20 pounds).

And it is about convenience - people are willing to accept the risk for the added convenience.

Re: Coin

#633

Post by rsynnott »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #315
rmc wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans going to Europe: Remember that your credit card might not work as often in Europe. Be prepared for hearing "We only take chip & pin cards here" in shops etc.

Imagine my dismay when a coffeeshop in Amsterdam would not take my magstrip only American Express.

A lot of places wouldn't take Amex of any description; it's far less commonly supported than Visa and Mastercard.

Re: Coin

#634

Post by rsynnott »

saryant wrote: post #577
rmc wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans going to Europe: Remember that your credit card might not work as often in Europe. Be prepared for hearing "We only take chip & pin cards here" in shops etc.

I keep hearing this but I spent six months in Europe and the only place that wouldn't take my swipe card was SNCF ticket kiosks. Wasn't a problem anywhere else.

It varies a lot by country. In Ireland, for instance, POS terminals deployed in the last five years or so in smaller shops typically don't have a swipe reader at all, and even where a swipe reader is available, the company may have a policy of not accepting swipe cards.

Re: Coin

#635

Post by rsynnott »

rcoh wrote: post #584
Nursie wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why the US hasn't adopted EMV. It's not perfect, but it has cut down fraud massively here in Europe. They're very hard to clone (I won't say impossible, but attacks against EMV have not generally been of this nature) and the transaction records at both ends will tell you whether the actual, real card was there. The liability is more clear-cut as a result. If the customer claims the charge was unauthorise…

The US hasn't adopted EMV because it isn't necessary. EMV was created because in Eastern Europe many businesses didn't have sufficiently reliable phone and internet connections to validate credit cards -- in the US we have no such problem. The cost of rolling out EMV was determined to be greater than the cost credit card companies paying for the increase in fraud and chargebacks out of pocket.

> EMV was created because in Eastern Europe many businesses didn't have sufficiently reliable phone and internet connections to validate credit cards

The first large chip and pin deployment was in France, in 1992. At the time, Eastern Europe was in economic chaos, and not really on the radar.

Re: Coin

#636

Post by mcv »

vidarh wrote: post #632
mcv wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know much about PayWave and PayPass, but this actually sounds even less secure than credit cards. And it still relies on the big two. Sounds like a step in the wrong direction. It's not about convenience, it's about security and reliability. That's the direction we need to take.

It's less secure than chip and pin credit cards, but it does require the presence of an object that can execute the right encryption operations with the right private keys, which makes it more secure than easily cloned mag-stripe cards. Because it is less secure, there's typically a low transaction limit (in the UK 15-20 pounds). And it is about convenience - people are willing to accept the risk for the added conven…

Transaction limits are absolutely an important factor in limiting these kind of risks.

In Netherland, there's also one electronic payment system that does not require a PIN: the "chip knip" (chip wallet). You explicitly transfer an amount of money from your account to the chip (often about $20), and you can use that to pay. You still need to approve the payment by pressing a button on the machine, but if you lose it, you don't lose a lot.

And it probably works without a phone/internet connection, because the money is right there on the card and nothing needs to be verified on any server.

Re: Coin

#637

Post by cLeEOGPw »

parshap wrote: post #599
cLeEOGPw wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a question - why is the guy in the video giving the card to waiter? What he is gonna do with it, he doesn't know the PIN number to charge it. Or in USA you can charge without PIN? Besides if he can just charge without PIN he also can just push button on the card to charge whatever account he wants, doesn't he?

Yes, in the U.S you can charge credit cards without a PIN for whatever amount you want. Yes, it's silly.

Really strange. Here in Lithuania we had similar systems in some places several years ago, but everyone quickly changed to always require PIN. Even in restaurants they come with wireless card reader and you don't even let your card out of your eye sight.

Re: Coin

#638

Post by eterm »

Nursie wrote: post #473
dgallagher wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. You hit on something though; in the U.S. there are tens of thousands of ATM machines all over. They all accept PIN numbers, and I "believe" magnetic-strip as well (not sure if they're doing fancy stuff too with built-in chips or not). It's the standard that everyone uses; debit card and credit cards alike. To change that to support different tech, you'd have to upgrade all of the…

I think here in the UK there was a multi-year phase in. Started with the banks own ATMs, then the machines that smaller businesses loan from banks to take payments, then (when there were enough commercial offerings available) there was a sort of forced date for merchants to make the switch (or take more liability, that was the choice). I think it took at least 5 years. So yeah, non-trivial. And if (as it sounds like)…

According to Wikipedia, in the UK it took less than 2 years to go from initial trial in 2003 to liability shift in 2005.

"Chip and PIN was trialled in Northampton, England from May 2003, and as a result was rolled out nationwide in the United Kingdom in 2004 with advertisements in the press and national television touting the "Safety in Numbers" slogan. During the first stages of deployment, if a fraudulent magnetic swipe card transaction was deemed to have occurred, the retailer was refunded by the issuing bank, as was the case prior to the introduction of Chip and PIN. On January 1, 2005, the liability for such transactions was shifted to the retailer;"

Also note this bbc article[1] suggesting a Feb 2006 deadline for not accepting signatures from cards that were chip and pin enabled.

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4692566.stm

Re: Coin

#639

Post by jameswyse »

bloopletech wrote: post #503
Nursie wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why the US hasn't adopted EMV. It's not perfect, but it has cut down fraud massively here in Europe. They're very hard to clone (I won't say impossible, but attacks against EMV have not generally been of this nature) and the transaction records at both ends will tell you whether the actual, real card was there. The liability is more clear-cut as a result. If the customer claims the charge was unauthorise…

In Australia, we've even moved beyond EMV; the majority of merchants now accept Visa PayWave and MasterCard PayPass for tap-and-go. [edit: Oh, and all my debit/credit cards are now paywave/paypass enabled, and they are all from the big 4/5 banks] The Coin page doesn't mention this at all; does it have this? If not, it sounds like a step backwards.

We also have the cheque/savings/credit buttons which I've not seen anywhere else in the world (besides NZ). I have my Westpac debit card set up to use cheque/credit for my personal account and savings for my joint account, but I've not met a single other person who makes use of this feature..

Re: Coin

#640

Post by taude »

HelloMcFly wrote: post #513
taude wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my list: * Costco membership card * three loyalty shopper cards for my common stores (I need the physical card because none of the apps I've tried using that scan the bar codes work with store scanners) * a card to pay for my train rides, * bank debit card for ATMS * business credit card * personal credit card * medical insurance card (this one would be easy to just use a photo of) * AAA card (would be easy to…

Re: Loyalty cards - you can almost always just enter your phone number at merchants. I've encountered no exceptions to this, but I'm sure they exist.

That's why the majority of them stay at home. For some reason, the grocery stores, when doing self-checkout and such, don't have email input or phone number. :(

EDIT: I should add that the main grocery store I shop at, you scan your card when you enter and are given a wand to checkout your groceries as you add them to the bag.

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