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Re: Coin

#271
post #178
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - I don't see the comments here as Hater News, but rather the exact sort of questions pretty much any consumer or business user would ask. There's a glint of "oh this is useful" and then there's the "oh, but what about this... and that...". That's not Hater News - that's pretty much exactly what any non-technical person would inquire about this product.

I think Coin is going to be wildly successful. I was looking at my wallet the other day, and wondering why i can't slim it down even further to carry one digital card instead of multiple. i even thought it would make a good startup. and here we are. the only drawback in my mind's eye regarding coin as a business is that there will be no reason to have "swipes" anymore if you can just scan a smartphone, as with the st…

But how many of the cards in your wallet could be replaced by Coin? For me it's maybe three. If it can't replace nearly all of them it seems pretty pointless to me - I'm still going to be carrying my wallet, it'll just have two fewer cards in it.

Yay? In any case, it does seem odd to build a business around something that is virtually guaranteed to be extinct in a few years time.

Re: Coin

#272
It's a neat concept, but I just don't think this gets anywhere.

Dead in the water - as much as I would personally like to see them succeed.

The biggest problems here are security.

() Merchants will hate it since there is no physical imprint / swipe of the bank-issued card. This will lead to chargebacks in favor of the customer. So this alone kills this company/product.

() Banks might change their terms forbidding customers to create digital copies / clones of their card. As per card holder agreements, if you (or Coin) has ever read one, you don't own your card. You're fully bound by the terms of the agreement.

() There is the issue of PCI-DSS compliance. They mention they're "in the process of earning" it but this is a lengthy, difficult and _costly_ process ($100 k). They're using a loophole to ensure consumer peace of mind but this won't last at all.

() Adding a card seems flawed. You're asked to take a picture of the physical card after swiping to "prevent fraud" ok but unless Coin uses some advanced image processing/OCR to validate the card with the swiped data, you can take a picture of any card. So big fail here.

() Coin seems to access a cloud service. Another major reason that this simply isn't going to work. If you've paid any attention to the NSA situation within the past 6-months, ordinary/average consumers (not the HN crowd) are becoming weary of cloud/hosted service. Not to mention, Coin will never ever work outside of the US (or San Francisco for that matter).

Practical usability problems:

() Most users are totally fine with credit cards and big wallets. It's actually empowering to them. I spoke to a guy who loves the fact that he has every color Amex card! So in essence, this is geared towards a micro-niche of tech savvy SF/NY/LA crowd.

() Selecting a card by tapping the button - great. What if the waiter taps the same button? Or someone you're paying does? So many issues with this button here.

"We’ve designed the button to toggle cards in a way that makes it difficult to trigger a "press" unintentionally" -- yeah, well most of the time, credit card fraud is an intentional act. What a stupid response. And quite frankly, offensive to anyone with half a brain.

() The obvious issue of losing Coin and losing everything. People like backups. It's a mindset.

() Battery issues with digitizing a non-battery product (credit card). Be in no doubt that more than half of users will forget to charge their credit card (as if we don't have enough things to charge). So you'll see people having lunches and presenting a dead Coin. And since you don't have any plastic, well, now you're screwed.

Products are supposed to make life better, easier, more intuitive.

Conceptually, it sort of makes sense. But the execution is flawed in so many ways.

You're being sold a product that now requires more steps than you did before. And that is the killer fellow HN'ers.

I don't want to have to sync, take photos, select a card by pushing a button, make sure it's within range to my device, update the app when needed for it to work, deal with merchants who won't take it, CHARGE my credit card (!), deal with issues because I tapped/selected the wrong card - vs - take out and swipe. Done.

Fuck that.

The product is inherently flawed

Re: Coin

#273
post #227
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why the US hasn't adopted EMV. It's not perfect, but it has cut down fraud massively here in Europe. They're very hard to clone (I won't say impossible, but attacks against EMV have not generally been of this nature) and the transaction records at both ends will tell you whether the actual, real card was there. The liability is more clear-cut as a result. If the customer claims the charge was unauthorise…

Because it's a massive cost for almost no gain.

Apart from the security. Coin shows just how easy it is to skim and duplicate cards. Way more difficult with chip and pin.

Re: Coin

#274
post #87
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit card theft like you describe is already possible and already happens

This makes it less suspicious. Traditionally a lot of small-time (i.e. Vegas) skimmers write mag-stripes onto other cards ranging from hotel key-cards to expired credit cards, but in places where skimming is common gas attendants and cashiers are trained to watch out for warning signs including lots of expired cards, trying lots of cards, name on computer doesn't match name on card, and especially hotel keycards at g…

This is interesting. You can just buy blank magstripe PVC cards in bulk for very cheap on Amazon. You can buy an ID printer for a couple grand. Why the need to repurpose old cards?

Re: Coin

#275

It's a neat concept, but I just don't think this gets anywhere. Dead in the water - as much as I would personally like to see them succeed. The biggest problems here are security. () Merchants will hate it since there is no physical imprint / swipe of the bank-issued card. This will lead to chargebacks in favor of the customer. So this alone kills this company/product. () Banks might change their terms forbidding cus…

If you've paid any attention to the NSA situation within the past 6-months, ordinary/average consumers (not the HN crowd) are becoming weary of cloud/hosted service.

Quite the opposite. The HN crowd is becoming wary of cloud services, ordinary/average consumers aren't even aware of the NSA relevations.

Re: Coin

#276
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errr, did you read the part where fraud has dropped massively? And liability is more clear-cut and reasonable for pretty much all parties? --edit-- and did you think us Europeans just rolled it out for shits and giggles?

> And liability is more clear-cut and reasonable for pretty much all parties? Meaning shifted entirely to the consumer?

No, the merchant takes reasonable liability - if they permit non-EMV transactions (in a customer-present scenario) they assume the risk.

Under law in much of Europe, the consumer is not under much risk. In the UK (for example) the credit card provider is legally a party to the debt and has a responsibility to refund the consumer on demand if the consumer is willing to state (in a legally binding way) that the transaction was not authorised by them. Debit cards are governed by different rules that amount to much the same, though the legal protections are weaker.

Re: Coin

#277
post #266
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Errr, did you read the part where fraud has dropped massively? And liability is more clear-cut and reasonable for pretty much all parties? --edit-- and did you think us Europeans just rolled it out for shits and giggles?

Credit card fraud is generally not a problem in the US for consumers or the credit card companies, the two groups that would be in a position to adopt a new credit card technology. The merchants accept all the liability in the US credit card system, and they're at the mercy of the credit card company's policies, and the consumer's desire to use their card of choice or go somewhere else. As a consumer, I avoid cash-on…

Thankyou, that's an explanation that makes a lot of sense - the poor schlubs at the sharp end are not in a position to make changes.

Re: Coin

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does deactivated mean erased? From what I understand...there is some sort of memory chip on the card that stores the credit card numbers and info for every card, right? So what is to stop some chip from bypassing the OS that manages the multiple cards and just reads the raw data? Sure, it may be 128-bit encrypted, but if they have the raw dump - then it's just a matter of brute forcing it to eventually crack it...no?…

Well if the coin can be deactivated when it's out of range, that would mean the coin has to be "smart" because it wouldn't be the phone app doing the deactivation but the coin itself. In that case, why couldn't the coin take extreme measures and just wipe its memory? Inconvenient for legitimate situations where the card is out of range and not accidental ones, but I imagine it's quick process to reload the coin with…

I agree that it COULD be a possibility, but is it?

Re: Coin

#279
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as "gobbling the card" is concerned, their FAQ states that they can only be used with "dip" ATMs, which may also address the button pushing issue. EDIT: More details from the FAQ: Q. Can someone accidentally change which card is selected on my Coin? A. We’ve designed the button to toggle cards in a way that makes it difficult to trigger a "press" unintentionally. Dropping a Coin, holding a Coin, sitting on a C…

Surely you'll get a waiter that will be curious and intentionally press the button... then what do you think happens?

Seems straight-forward to disable toggling when the card is out of range from your phone.

Re: Coin

#280
post #269
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my list: * Costco membership card * three loyalty shopper cards for my common stores (I need the physical card because none of the apps I've tried using that scan the bar codes work with store scanners) * a card to pay for my train rides, * bank debit card for ATMS * business credit card * personal credit card * medical insurance card (this one would be easy to just use a photo of) * AAA card (would be easy to…

Don't know if your personal card is an Amex or not, but my Amex is a Costco Amex and doubles as my membership card. I'm surprised your loyalty cards aren't the smaller key ring ones. I have half a dozen on my keys and barely notice them. I leave my AAA and Airline cards at home and pull them out when I need them for trips. Could probably do the same for your Zip Car card (unless you use the service multiple times a w…

Ironically, I think my AAA card could double as a AMEX. But I don't use it for that.

I do have a lot of the shopper cards available on key. But I run uber-light on my keys and shifting cards from one pocket to another doesn't really help me gain anything. Also, with the key-ring versions, I've shared them with my S.O. so we can keep all our groceries and loyalty points together so they add up faster for household items or discounted gas, etc...

The problem with leaving a card like Zip Card at home is I'm inevitably going to be somewhere that's not home and need a Zip Car.

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