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Re: Page not found

#81

Post by girvo »

sp332 wrote: post #77
timje1 wrote: post #30

This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?) : the idea of it being a humiliating punishment for a respectable businessman having to dress up like a woman and serve other men. So it was my understanding that Virgin backed away from this bet and tried to downplay it. I'm a bit surprised by this picture cropping up on the website. Am I being hypersensitive? No-one else seems to have picked up on this…

As a (male) feminist, I think Jezebel is full of people who just like piling on. Maybe it's a community bonding thing, or maybe it's cathartic, but the comments sections are always overblown.

The understatement of the year...

Re: Page not found

#82

Post by frogpelt »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #52

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

Great idea!! Let's think of all the reasons it could hurt someone's feelings.

But here's an interesting fact about being offended: it's a choice, just like most emotional responses.

You can choose not to be offended. That doesn't mean you always should choose that path but most of the time it is the better choice.

If someone cuts you off in traffic on the way to work, you can A) be mad at the person, try to retaliate, and go to work in a bad mood or you can B) forget about it and not waste your emotional energy on a bad driver you will probably never meet.

Choosing to be or not be offended is similar.

Re: Page not found

#83

Post by bmelton »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #52

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

Being offended is, I believe, a choice that people make, and I think people should choose to be offended less, not more.

Re: Page not found

#84

Post by JonnieCache »

tinco wrote: post #50
timje1 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still possible that a man "who has made so many women rich and powerful" might do something distasteful or misjudged - and it's possible to propose a discussion about this behaviour without it turning into a smear. The fact that many men find it humiliating to dress like a woman is exactly what I find distasteful. With my apologies for escalating the rhetoric : many men find the idea of sex with another man humi…

No, and he is not making fun of women, he is making fun of his own masculinity. And there's a difference between making fun of homosexuals to hurt them, and to make fun of them to be merry with them. Thirdly, your opinion on the feelings of men in general is rather inconsequential. What do you want to do, flog every man who finds it humiliating to dress in drag?

No. He wants to have a discussion of gender issues to try and increase mutual understanding and global human happiness.

Unfortunately that's an almost impossible discussion to have, because some people always divert the community into a pointless meta-discussion about whether it's legitimate to have the first discussion or not.

I've almost never seen HN discuss gender. I've seen it discuss discussing gender for pages and pages and pages...

Re: Page not found

#85

Post by girvo »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #52

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

I truly never thought dressing in drag could be offensive.

Re: Page not found

#86

Post by ultramundane828 »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #52

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

I don't see this as inflammatory or offensive. However, I do have a separate problem.

It reads like a rebuttal, but has no parent comment. It makes me feel like you're speaking to a comment no one made. Derail complete.

Re: Page not found

#87

Post by bmelton »

lucasnemeth wrote: post #47
timje1 wrote: post #30

This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?) : the idea of it being a humiliating punishment for a respectable businessman having to dress up like a woman and serve other men. So it was my understanding that Virgin backed away from this bet and tried to downplay it. I'm a bit surprised by this picture cropping up on the website. Am I being hypersensitive? No-one else seems to have picked up on this…

You're not being hypersensitive, this is sexist and transphobic. Let's imagine if he had lost a bet and had to paint his face black, and them serve his competitors, everybody would agree that's racist. I don't even think there is much to discuss here.

Not everyone would agree that was racist.

Re: Page not found

#88

Post by andrelaszlo »

brianmcdonough wrote: post #74
andrelaszlo wrote: post #52

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up? Your post demonstrates that you have no firm opinion on the matter and that you are "covering all the bases" as opposed to saying something meaningful based on your personal experience. I lived with someone who tried to commit suicide and suffered from deep depression. Laughter was the one thing that helped. It's pretty clear that RB is having…

>> Do you actually believe suicide can be caused by someone playing dress up?

That's not what I wrote at all.^ I even provided a link for you.

I didn't state my opinion, as it's not very interesting (I really don't care about how RB dresses).

What I tried to do was to try to answer the people that asked why anyone would be offended by this ("This bet was attacked by feminists (rightly? or too sensitive?)"). I'm not offended, personally, so I tried to take a look at it from a birds-eye view to get the discussion going.

So far it's quite disappointing. I'm not sure if people are actively trying to misunderstand me or if I'm just not expressing myself very well. (Is there a name for this?) The general consensus seems to be that I'm a humorless, anti-intellectual, silly PC police that should just get over myself^^. Which I actually find quite funny. :D

Lastly, I wonder why this make people so emotional. I wanted to avoid labeling anyone as "sexist" or things like that. I don't think RB had these intentions, and he's probably a great guy...

^ This is misrepresenting what I wrote to the point where it just sounds absurd. A kind of straw man fallacy, I think. I am actually surprised to see this kind of argumentation techniques used at HN.

^^ Ad hominem, anyone? Sure, I might be any/all of these things... but it doesn't prove your point.

Re: Page not found

#89

Post by brickmort »

andrelaszlo wrote: post #52

Some ideas of why it could be found offensive: 1. Misogyny. Why? Flight attendants are women. Rich CEO's are men. A CEO that loses a bet and has to work as a flight attendant, also has to wear a skirt, stockings and lipstick. To clarify: It's a stereotype, and stereotypes can be found offensive. Imagine if he had painted his face black instead. 2. Transphobia. Why? Men dressing up as women are supposed to be silly. H…

In my honest (and probably unpopular) opinion, There's a limit where this 'offended' thing starts getting ridiculous, and, to me, this is where it is. You really can't please everybody, and if you do try to please everybody, the only thing you'll end up being able to do is stand there and/or walk. Even then, you'll eventually offend somebody for standing and walking. The best thing to do is take this for what it is; a light-hearted joke. and move on. It's not worth the debates and arguments that come with it. there are bigger problems to worry about than a guy dressed in women's clothing.

Re: Page not found

#90

Post by tinco »

JonnieCache wrote: post #84
tinco wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, and he is not making fun of women, he is making fun of his own masculinity. And there's a difference between making fun of homosexuals to hurt them, and to make fun of them to be merry with them. Thirdly, your opinion on the feelings of men in general is rather inconsequential. What do you want to do, flog every man who finds it humiliating to dress in drag?

No. He wants to have a discussion of gender issues to try and increase mutual understanding and global human happiness. Unfortunately that's an almost impossible discussion to have, because some people always divert the community into a pointless meta-discussion about whether it's legitimate to have the first discussion or not. I've almost never seen HN discuss gender. I've seen it discuss discussing gender for pages…

Yes man, stop doing that.
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