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Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

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Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#131
post #2

So what's a better way to do it? You need a documented system. If you don't have a documented system then there will be an undocumented system which is the same problem with less documentation.

Documentation isn't magic. Documented systems beget undocumented systems.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#132

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

"The American Dream" is meritocracy, and meritocracy is basically a lie, any which way you slice it. Measures don't discover merit, merit doesn't correlate to rising,and rising is only available to the few.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've just described not one, but two bad managers. Steve's manager, who doesn't have what it takes to make the hard decisions and is to lazy to do job interviews, and the manager of Steve's manager, who won't let him get a replacement if he fires Steve, but is perfectly willing to keep paying for Steve. Now you can defend Steve's manager because he's nice to Steve, but if I had a dime for every employee who's pisse…

You call someone a bad manager because they are friends with their subordinates? So you'd only hire psychopaths? That seems fraught with peril. To be more explicit: calling a human a bad manager for liking people is like calling a tree a bad tree for growing toward the sun. Humans are designed by evolution to like each other. The only humans that don't have this bias are broken ones. So I refuse to consider someone a…

In the context of management, "good" doesn't mean the same thing as "nice" or "friend". Management isn't a popularity contest.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've just described not one, but two bad managers. Steve's manager, who doesn't have what it takes to make the hard decisions and is to lazy to do job interviews, and the manager of Steve's manager, who won't let him get a replacement if he fires Steve, but is perfectly willing to keep paying for Steve. Now you can defend Steve's manager because he's nice to Steve, but if I had a dime for every employee who's pisse…

You call someone a bad manager because they are friends with their subordinates? So you'd only hire psychopaths? That seems fraught with peril. To be more explicit: calling a human a bad manager for liking people is like calling a tree a bad tree for growing toward the sun. Humans are designed by evolution to like each other. The only humans that don't have this bias are broken ones. So I refuse to consider someone a…

One thing that people often don't realize is that firing someone is miserable for the person doing the firing. That's a powerful disincentive to follow through, even if intellectually you know that the person needs to go. This is even worse when your friendly with the employee. This means that the most humane managers, the people you want to work for, can also find it harder to do their job than the sociopaths.

I don't know how to square this circle. I'm not sure it can be done.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've just described not one, but two bad managers. Steve's manager, who doesn't have what it takes to make the hard decisions and is to lazy to do job interviews, and the manager of Steve's manager, who won't let him get a replacement if he fires Steve, but is perfectly willing to keep paying for Steve. Now you can defend Steve's manager because he's nice to Steve, but if I had a dime for every employee who's pisse…

but if I had a dime for every employee who's pissed at their manager for not ditching the underperformer that's dragging the team down I would be rich. I've worked places where every person would swear a different person was that person. This stuff is hard, We've had corporations in the modern form for nearly a 100 years and we still havent reached a general solution which implies either everyone is an idiot or this…

Slackers, psychopaths etc are analogically parasites and predators. Billions of years of biological evolution and thousands of years of social evolution have not found a stable solution to this problem.

I think we need to chalk this up as a Red Queen problem and stop wishing for the One True Solution.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#136
post #42
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does open allocation address performance evaluation/compensation? Doesn't Valve have both open allocation and stack ranking?

Valve does stack ranking == compensation and they very much have a hirachy, it's just not documented. It's called the Tyranny of Structurelessness: http://beautifultrouble.org/principle/beware-the-tyranny-of-...

It's not structureless just because it's flat. Specifically, the article mentions "accountability is what gives democracy its bite", and Valve has definite accountability in its peer review and ranking processes, which as jstelly notes has no forced/expected distribution of results.

From the same article is a very appropriate quote: "Structurelessness is often mistakenly conflated with absence of hierarchy, when in fact, effective non-hierarchical forms of organizing actually require a great deal of structure. Anyone who has participated in an effectively facilitated general assembly or spokescouncil meeting will well understand this distinction."

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#137

Why do these companies have Microsoft-style stack-ranking systems? Because many engineers are pussies who don't fight for themselves. Imagine if that stack-ranking nonsense were done to a law firm. (Law firms have a very civilized way of managing people out into external promotions if they, after ~6 years, obviously aren't going to make partner. Google "Cravath model".) There'd be lawsuits galore. Attorneys would sta…

Your remarks assume that software developers aren't subverting stack ranking. Anecdotally, they are, either individually or in cooperation with their managers.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#138
post #96

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

> Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. I wholeheartedly agree. Apart from niche examples, like measuring sale people on sales, there is no good reliable way to measure employees based on performance/outputs. IO Psychologists have been looking at this for years and even mathematicians (like Leonard Mlodinow in The Drunkard's Walk) agree.

And measuring salespeople on sales has demonstrable negative effects as well, such as the popular "salesman will promise the world in order to make a commission, leaving the developers to hold the bag" trope.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#139
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does open allocation address performance evaluation/compensation? Doesn't Valve have both open allocation and stack ranking?

Review (and compensate based on) impact rather than "performance", the latter carrying connotations of personal assessment rather than objective contribution. Low impact doesn't mean you're a "low performer" or bad person, just that you didn't have any major successes that year. You'd fire over low impact if someone clearly didn't care, but not if they were just unlucky/ill-mentored/mistaken in choosing what efforts…

Valve does this in its ranking process, specifically the ranking process is about determining a composite value relative to his/her peers that each individual has on the company that allows for varied impacts to be comparable. For example in a system like this, someone who is an amazing programmer who spends more time making everyone around him smart than writing features doesn't have to rank lower than someone who quietly sits by himself writing a ton of feature code. That, plus no expectation/forcing of a certain distribution (e.g. the 10% lowest scoring people aren't necessarily shit, they could all be adequate in terms of value and deserving of a solid bonus, it's just that they're not as high as the folks above them) are what makes the process truly work and keeps confidence/trust in the system high (as well as the fact that all employees participate in the process.)

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#140
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am currently reading a bunch of the Toyota Way books, Deming, etc. and sometimes I wonder if one of the most basic assumptions in the West is that the individual is the root and the system is a derived thing. This assumption starts, maybe, with Christianity which tells us that we stand alone before God judged on our individual character, not on our wealth or social position. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells us th…

This is a really interesting observation, and one I've thought about before. I've noticed that companies tend to fall into two philosophical camps, both of which can be successful if executed right. One camp says that you should create a great process so that you can stick anyone in it and they can be successful. Another camp says you should get great people and the process will work itself out. I'm illustrating the…

There must be a balance, since both are in fact true.

The same can be said of politics, but extreme ideologies exist still.

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