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Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

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Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#121
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wondered if recursively propagating down "bonus points" would be a fair way of solving this. For example, Acme, Inc ranks on a 1-5 scale, and all things being equal, a manager will get (direct reports)x3 points to allocate for his performance reviews. But Acme has a good quarter due to a strong engineering effort, so the CEO decides that Bob, VP of Eng, gets a 4, and he gets to allocate (direct reports)x4 points…

I always wanted to experiment with a system where all employees have a currency that they can pay other developers who help them or that they think are doing really well. As well as the credits that all employees have, there are also large numbers of credits distributed to the product owners of products in proportion to how much money they make. Come bonus time, the bonuses are paid in proportion to how many credits…

I could easily imagine gaming this system just like the others via kickbacks or other quid pro quos.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#122

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

This is the basic cooperation vs. competition problem. If you have competition then people spend a lot of resources fighting because what matters most is being faster than your friends, even if that means working to slow them down. Whereas if you have cooperation then you get complacency because then nobody has to be faster than anybody, so everybody can sit on their duff. It seems to me the solution is to rate peopl…

> "The article seems to think this doesn't work because you can't give a large bonus to everyone"

Indeed. Why can't you simply measure people against a consistent, externally-defined bar, and reward them based on their share of their performance group?

e.g., Employees who hit the bar are in group C, employees who exceed it are in group B, employees who are extraordinary are in group A. Each group has a portion of the bonus pool, and each member of a group gets the same as every other member of their group.

You can still get rewarded for better work, but now you're no longer working against an arbitrary bar defined by your peers. If you, hypothetically, have a team full of rockstars then everyone shares the bonus pool equally. Done.

Also, what's up with tying raises (not bonuses) to performance rankings? At the end of the day people will leave if they can get paid more elsewhere. The best/only way to ensure your employees don't leave is to keep paying them at or near what they can get on the open market today. That guy may be the weakest engineer on your team, but he's still a good engineer and can do a lot better than the shitty 2% raise you've stuck him with.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#123

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

> Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. I don't know whether this is common in other industries, but at top American law firms, salary raises and bonuses are lockstep. That means everyone gets paid based strictly on seniority. At many firms, this even carries through the partnership ranks. There are benefits and disadvantages to such a system. The benefit is that…

I don't think you want to be replicating the management practices of major law firms, which are generously considered awful places to work. Lockstep bonuses only apply to associates, and are usually a function of the senior attorneys' inability to provide meaningful feedback and performance management, not a desire to reduce competition.

Competition at law firms is fierce. They are rife with unproductive credit seeking, because the real incentive isn't a bonus, it's promotion to equity partner, and there are only a small number of spots open at the top.

But you nail the real issue with stacked ranking: HR departments should help design and manage a performance management system, but the feedback and decisions need to be handled by managers who know the business and have direct involvement in their employees' work. I think you're over-estimating how effective this is at investment banks, where you tend to have transparent performance metrics, but awful managers. But there a lot of major companies tend to get it right.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#125

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

Equally shared bonus pools were fairly common in top-tier professional services firms until the late 1990s, and even when they changed, most kept fairly equal distributions of profits between partners and to associates.

However, almost all of those firms used a stack ranking system that was even more aggressive - those at the top got promoted, those in the middle got worked out over time, and those at the bottom got fired.

Shared bonus pools work when a company has an aggressive performance management culture, but this doesn't become visible as long as the company is doing well. When things are good, everyone is getting an extra lump of cash, even if it has nothing to do with their individual performance. But when the market changes, top performers flee because they realize they can make a lot more money someplace else, and that they'll never hit their goals until the company gets rid of the stragglers at the bottom and stops settling for mediocrity among everyone else.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#126

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

I am currently reading a bunch of the Toyota Way books, Deming, etc. and sometimes I wonder if one of the most basic assumptions in the West is that the individual is the root and the system is a derived thing. This assumption starts, maybe, with Christianity which tells us that we stand alone before God judged on our individual character, not on our wealth or social position. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells us th…

This is a really interesting observation, and one I've thought about before.

I've noticed that companies tend to fall into two philosophical camps, both of which can be successful if executed right. One camp says that you should create a great process so that you can stick anyone in it and they can be successful. Another camp says you should get great people and the process will work itself out. I'm illustrating the extremes to clarify the picture: even process-driven firms need good people, and people-driven firms need good processes.

I'm not sure there's actually a "right" answer to the question, so much as you need to make sure you execute in the right way against the strategy you've chosen, although I do think that certain industries and firm sizes tend to advantage one over the other.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#127
It depends on whether there are any checks so that such ranking systems are not abused. I know first hand that such systems are ripe for abuse by those who are connected. I know of an incident when a well connected long term employee performed very poorly and was put in the weeding out category. However because of his connections with Vice Presidents was able to engineer so that someone else was given his place in the ranking and fired. In a way a person was specifically hired to that team, reviews were engineered to give him a bad review in order to remove the well-connected but badly performing manager from the bottom list. This was not uncommon and would happen invariably in order to save the well connected but poorly performing person.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#128

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

I am currently reading a bunch of the Toyota Way books, Deming, etc. and sometimes I wonder if one of the most basic assumptions in the West is that the individual is the root and the system is a derived thing. This assumption starts, maybe, with Christianity which tells us that we stand alone before God judged on our individual character, not on our wealth or social position. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells us th…

That's a really good point. Its not just the useless people that reduce a team's effectiveness.

A few jobs back, I worked with a person that was incredibly brilliant, and a very prolific developer. Unfortunately he made everyone around him miserable in countless ways (definitely a prima donna). He would rewrite large sections of code and change core user functionality without asking product managers or other developers. When confronted, he refused to revert his changes because he had done it right and "everyone would see once it was released".

His abilities and contributions would likely put him at the top of a stack rank, but overall he may have hurt the company more than he contributed.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#129

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

This is the basic cooperation vs. competition problem. If you have competition then people spend a lot of resources fighting because what matters most is being faster than your friends, even if that means working to slow them down. Whereas if you have cooperation then you get complacency because then nobody has to be faster than anybody, so everybody can sit on their duff. It seems to me the solution is to rate peopl…

> It seems to me the solution is to rate people against absolute standards, never against each other.

The problem is that some desirable activities and behaviours aren't objectively measurable, but proposing any given measurement and then tying it to reward and punishment will change activities and behaviours.

In fields where you can have "total supervision" of a task, it can be made to work. If your metric is "widgets screwed together that pass QC", that's easily measured and paid.

If your goals are stuff like "elegant, modifiable software" or "communicates well with colleagues" then these can't be measured objectively. You have to pick proxies (cyclomatic complexity, number of emails sent) as your measurement. But then all that happens is that the proxies are optimised for. People will write peculiar software and treat email like twitter.

The book to read is Measuring and Managing Performance in Organizations by Robert D. Austin. His 3-party model of performance tracking neatly demonstrates why, under most conditions, an "objective" system is impossible.

Not hard. Impossible.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#130
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. I don't know whether this is common in other industries, but at top American law firms, salary raises and bonuses are lockstep. That means everyone gets paid based strictly on seniority. At many firms, this even carries through the partnership ranks. There are benefits and disadvantages to such a system. The benefit is that…

I don't think you want to be replicating the management practices of major law firms, which are generously considered awful places to work. Lockstep bonuses only apply to associates, and are usually a function of the senior attorneys' inability to provide meaningful feedback and performance management, not a desire to reduce competition. Competition at law firms is fierce. They are rife with unproductive credit seeki…

> I don't think you want to be replicating the management practices of major law firms, which are generously considered awful places to work.

Law firms are generally considered awful places to work because they're in a service business where people are compensated, in part, on their ability to respond to client requests at 2 am. But that aside, there are a lot of very sensible management practices in law firms, that have arisen through more than a century of practical experience in a "knowledge worker" field where employee performance is not easily quantified.

It's in vogue to criticize law firm management for problems that are properly attributed to the structural dynamics of the industry (slowing growth in demand), but I've never found such criticism convincing. Indeed, I think a lot of the historical conditions that led to the current management practices of law firms are similar to the conditions faced by top technology companies today. Google and Facebook don't need to figure out how to get adequate performance from large numbers of mediocre people, like Big Corps often do. Rather, they are in a position where they have plenty of money to hire the top talent, but face an experience shortage. How Cravath, and others, responded to the similar situation in the early 20th century was institutionalized training, lockstep, and "up or out" combined with a substantial equity carrot. Instead of searching high and low for experienced professionals, Cravath hired them right out of school and taught them everything they needed to know. They kept people moving up within the organization, and offered a very real chance for substantial equity in the firm.[1] Those that didn't quite cut it were pushed out, but to a soft landing because the industry as a whole was growing and there was very high demand at other organizations for people with that brand name and that training. Those conditions don't really hold true for law firms today, but seem very similar to me to the conditions faced by Google, Facebook, etc.

Incidentally, I think Fog Creek's system is great, and is practically quite similar to lockstep: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000038.html. There are essentially just four levels (9-12) for engineers who are neither interns nor fellows, and compensation is fixed, and public, at each level (except for a small percentage of each level that might get "superstar" status and compensation halfway to the next level). There are no individual bonuses, just profit-sharing bonuses that are based on company performance and also fixed at each level. Promotion between levels is based on a holistic analysis rather than strictly seniority, but that's probably a useful tweak to lockstep.

> Lockstep bonuses only apply to associates

Quite a few New York firms are still lockstep throughout the partnership. When firms abandon lockstep, its because of profitability: only a handful of firms are so profitable that they can compete for rainmakers while maintaining a lockstep regime. Since were talking about Google, Facebook, etc, in this thread, I don't think that constraint is relevant.

> and are usually a function of the senior attorneys' inability to provide meaningful feedback and performance management, not a desire to reduce competition.

Senior attorneys aren't great at providing feedback, but at least they see your work product, day in and day out. Engineering managers usually aren't reviewing and editing every line of code you commit!

I've worked as a software developer and also as a lawyer at a pure lockstep firm, and I preferred the management experience at the latter. The major things I appreciated were the flat management hierarchy and the strict separation between lawyers and non-lawyers. On even a big matter, there was maybe two to three levels above me. That was about the depth of the management hierarchy at the startup I worked for, which was 1/30th the size. And from screening interview to exit interview, I was never evaluated by a non-lawyer. HR was strictly for logistical support, not evaluation. And at the firm, even when feedback was weak, it was always from someone who had actually seen my work product, not some manager who heard from someone else about my work product. When I was at a software company, I spent a lot of time doing image management: making sure that someone important knew what I was up to. It was effective when it came to bonuses and raises, but it probably wasn't the most productive team dynamic. At the firm this wasn't even a concern. The partner on my matter saw my e-mails and often saw my work product. The only thing an administrative person tracked was my overall hours, and all I really worried about other than doing good work was making sure I kept my hours within the acceptable range.

[1] Even today, when partnership odds are considered a long-shot, a new hire at Cravath has a much better shot of becoming partner than a new Googler does of achieving a high VP-rank. This is at least partly because of eschewing the idea of hiring VP's from a separate class of professional managers rather than by promoting from within the technical ranks. This equity carrot is key to getting smart people to put in a lot of work for the benefit of the company.

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