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Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

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Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. Company performance is not dependent on the performance of any one single individual. That is, I can be the laziest, most incompetent developer or middle manger, and it would have no bearing on quarterly earning. So if you're using company-wide performance bonuses to stimulate productivity, in a company of thousands of employ…

I wonder if the individual reward versus collective reward approaches have any actual data for their respective sides? I am pretty sure Toyota gives collective bonuses or not, and they are kicking the shit out of American auto, but I don't really have the background in this to cite data on either side. Maybe someone on HN does?

>I am pretty sure Toyota gives collective bonuses

There's nothing wrong with collective bonuses. I just don't see them as a boost for productivity. It's a nice perk. I probably overstated their negative effect. You're not going to not do 'nothing' since your team will know if you're not pulling your weight, and social pressure plus threat of being fired will keep people in line. But yeah, generally collective rewards just don't work as expected, else communism would work.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#112

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

I am currently reading a bunch of the Toyota Way books, Deming, etc. and sometimes I wonder if one of the most basic assumptions in the West is that the individual is the root and the system is a derived thing. This assumption starts, maybe, with Christianity which tells us that we stand alone before God judged on our individual character, not on our wealth or social position. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells us th…

Completely agree, I think you have the roots of the different paradigms entirely correct. It's also the same dichotomy that produces the bisected political extremes in the US.

I disagree that we don't want to go there. One of these seems to produce better results, companies, and societies, while the other produces effectively dysfunctional ones, like the example we just read.

I seek realignment. This can be improved.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#113

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

I agree. Having worked in the military, where there were no bonuses whatsoever, and salaries were based on a standard scale, I found that what made the good employees good was that they were proud of / enjoyed their work, and not money (a different problem was that people could not be easily fired (to say the least), which did lead to some slacking). I personally believe that people whose main motivation is the bonus are not the employees one should look for.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#114

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

I am currently reading a bunch of the Toyota Way books, Deming, etc. and sometimes I wonder if one of the most basic assumptions in the West is that the individual is the root and the system is a derived thing. This assumption starts, maybe, with Christianity which tells us that we stand alone before God judged on our individual character, not on our wealth or social position. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells us th…

For more on Deming's ideas see

  http://blog.deming.org/

  http://blog.deming.org/2013/09/online-resources-for-w-edwards-demings-management-ideas/

  http://blog.deming.org/tag/performance-appraisal/
"The idea of a merit rating is alluring. The sound of the words captivates the imagination: pay for what you get; get what you pay for; motivate people to do their best, for their own good.

The effect is exactly the opposite of what the words promise." W. Edward Deming - see: http://blog.deming.org/2013/02/the-idea-of-performance-ratin...

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#115
post #78

Eh. I'm in Facebook bootcamp now. Between this article about the ranking system, a truly uninspiring (to me --- YMMV) choice of teams to work on, and the press Facebook has been getting lately, I'm seriously considering parting ways and going somewhere else. Nobody can beat Facebook's pay or food, but what good is it if I feel like I lack direction and purpose? How much would it damage my career to say I tried FB boo…

Hey, since I can't find your name or contact info on your account I figured I'd comment saying that I run Bootcamp and it sounds like we should chat (dr@fb.com) :)

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#116

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

I did experience revulsion, but I think that you're right, it's an important concept to think about. I perused the link you provided, and here are some random thoughts: - The article lists as a deadly sin: "Evaluation by performance, merit rating, or annual review of performance" But then the question remains: how do you make sure your best employees don't get poached by other companies who are willing to acknowledge…

It's more about producing a quality culture in order to produce a quality product. You can still recognize people for performance, but not by an unverifiable and arbitrary rating scale. You can still promote people, but do it in the open by agreed upon skills, merits, and experience. Your goal shouldn't be to demotivate people by negating all forms of reward, but to motivate them by rewarding in the clear based on agreeable reasoning.

The key is in the culture: enable people to take pride in their work. It turns out from 10,000 feet, what most people want isn't, in fact, simple monetary recognition, that this is a by-product of the dysfunctional reward-seeking individualistic culture, looking for any way to find self-worth and recognition in a system devoid of true value. Any port in a storm.

What people really want is autonomy, mastery, and purpose from their work, and a culture that enables them to love what they do while being fairly compensated and challenged. Deming's ideas are meant to enable this type of business, and entirely remove the type of childish game playing over simplistic rewards you're talking about.

You go from a simplistic carrot-and-stick reward-seeking and punishment-avoiding mentality (and all the complex structures of negative reinforcement and behavior avoidance built around it) to a functional culture, devoid of fear, enabling people to do work that they can feel proud of.

If you have people who really are superior, they'll want to be challenged, to work with other great people, and to be fairly compensated. If you have sub-par people, work on raising them to another level: Point 13, "Institute a vigorous program of education and self-improvement."

Furthermore, your top performers are your outliers: the tiny sliver on the end of your bell curve. You need to start by realizing that statistically, improving your entire culture is going to improve your company more than desperately keeping hold of your top 2 rockstars using methods that are demotivating everybody else. It turns out, the things you do to improve your systems and culture are the same things that top performers want. They'll leave if they're not feeling fulfilled—if bonuses and money is all they want, screw 'em, they're culture thieves anyway. But what they probably really want is work that is real.

Easier said than done, but Deming gives an excellent prescription for how to do it, and it's fully backed up.

The key is to realize that you cannot do these things in isolation. That was his last point: "Put everybody in the company to work to accomplish the transformation. The transformation is everybody's job." You can't just remove part of your existing system because of one suggestion: you need to replace it with another, better one.

PS: Here's another writeup I did on this subject recently, delving into much more detail: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6704645

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#117

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

>Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. Company performance is not dependent on the performance of any one single individual. That is, I can be the laziest, most incompetent developer or middle manger, and it would have no bearing on quarterly earning. So if you're using company-wide performance bonuses to stimulate productivity, in a company of thousands of employ…

You'd think that, but in fact, statistically and scientifically speaking, the opposite is true.

This is the disconnect.

"the idea of rewarding high achievers (carrot) and punishing under-achievers (stick) is a good one."

No, it isn't. This creates a company in which people are constantly afraid of the stick and fighting for the carrot. This generates in-fighting, corporate politics, ladder-climbing, game-playing, and a demotivated base (people not being motivated by either end of the bell curve). Your measurements become focus targets (as with standardized testing in schools) instead of your actual product. You lose cohesion, destroy culture, create a network of jealousy, secrecy, and fear. You lose employee loyalty, cause resentment, and lose productivity and effectiveness. Quality is adversely affected.

You're not going to get it right 100% of the time because you're not going to get it right ever. You're generating a dysfunctional culture, only held in place despite itself.

The answer is to remove it all; enable true pride in work, fair compensation, leadership, continual improvement, education and self-improvement. This works better. Not just in theory, but in practice. When you remove all the unpredictable negative consequences of the carrot-and-stick system, you enable an order of magnitude better company.

Read it again, try to understand it better. There's a disconnect, and you're the perfect example of what's fighting this exponential improvement.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#118

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

I am currently reading a bunch of the Toyota Way books, Deming, etc. and sometimes I wonder if one of the most basic assumptions in the West is that the individual is the root and the system is a derived thing. This assumption starts, maybe, with Christianity which tells us that we stand alone before God judged on our individual character, not on our wealth or social position. Buddhism, on the other hand, tells us th…

Minor point...

I'd say Christianity goes along with the original poster's idea of everyone getting the same reward - ie grace - nothing you do can merit it - it's a gift.

The parable of the vineyard workers explains it - it doesn't matter how late in the day the workers start working - they all get the same reward.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#119

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

This is the basic cooperation vs. competition problem. If you have competition then people spend a lot of resources fighting because what matters most is being faster than your friends, even if that means working to slow them down. Whereas if you have cooperation then you get complacency because then nobody has to be faster than anybody, so everybody can sit on their duff.

It seems to me the solution is to rate people against absolute standards, never against each other. The article seems to think this doesn't work because you can't give a large bonus to everyone, but that smells like BS to me. If everyone is legitimately doing an outstanding job then the company as a whole should be doing outstandingly well, which means you should have plenty of money to pay everyone a large bonus. (Unless the metrics you're using are bunkum, in which case there's your problem.) The key is to make it absolutely without individual benefit to sabotage one's coworkers while still creating the incentive to excel personally.

Along similar lines, if you want to deal with the quarterly results bias, average it out. Publish numbers quarterly (or even more often than that) but set compensation based on an employee's five year average, not what they did just now. If you do poorly this quarter then you don't lose $1000 from your bonus this quarter, instead you lose $50/quarter for the next five years. At the same time, you still get a ~$1000 bonus this quarter, and you still want that number to go up next quarter, so you're keeping an eye on that average -- just not doing it this quarter at the expense of next quarter, because the psychological instant gratification of doing that goes away.

Re: Why are Amazon, Facebook and Yahoo copying Microsoft's stack ranking system?

#120

Here's a question to which most people experience revulsion, but must be thought of and answered honestly: Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. You'll probably think of reasons, like "good people should be rewarded," or "people who do things wrong need to have consequences," but you must realize the alternative is this vile demotivational anti-pattern with even w…

> Why not give everyone the same bonus based on company performance? Make it collective good. I don't know whether this is common in other industries, but at top American law firms, salary raises and bonuses are lockstep. That means everyone gets paid based strictly on seniority. At many firms, this even carries through the partnership ranks. There are benefits and disadvantages to such a system. The benefit is that…

>I don't know whether this is common in other industries, but at top American law firms, salary raises and bonuses are lockstep. That means everyone gets paid based strictly on seniority. At many firms, this even carries through the partnership ranks.

This is really only true for the associates any more, and it's a source of a lot of frustration. Mostly, I hear complaints about how either senior associates or junior partners are "carrying" the senior partners in some cases because their billing rate and total hours billed is grossly disproportionate to their income. Also, while salary might be locked based on which year an associate is in, there are all kinds of games played with which year associates get slotted into, especially if they move laterally between firms.

I don't agree that lock-step systems increase cooperation; if anything, they turn competition into a winner-takes-all game because they're generally associated with a strong "up-or-out" culture where you either get promoted or culled over time. That's not likely to encourage cooperation between peers.

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