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Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#151

Post by chockablock »

001sky wrote: post #102
chockablock wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite unfair. When I commuted by bike in SF for a couple years, I wore hi-vis clothing, front and rear lights even when it wasn't dark yet (especially at dusk!), and stuck to designated bike routes with calmer traffic when possible. And every day I saw hundreds of other cyclists just like me who didn't have a death wish. The (small-y) yahoos who ride dangerously certainly stand out more, but it's depressing to have f…

SF has problems with people running lights and stop signs because of the hills. I think its dis-ingenuous to deny this. It may be different in soma/mission, where the topography is completely different. But in the financial district (lots of 1 ways, no left turns, hills, tourists, etc) and around market street...the whole industry of bike messengers (ie, 30 years of history) is predicated on them not following traffi…

>I think its dis-ingenuous to deny this

I didn't mention stop signs or red lights in my comment. I just pointed out that there's a large population of conscientious, safety-minded cyclists out there who get ignored in these types of discussions.

Your invocation of law-breaking bike messengers in the second half of your comment is in fact a perfect recapitulation of the tendency I was referring to!

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#152

Post by 001sky »

chockablock wrote: post #151
001sky wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SF has problems with people running lights and stop signs because of the hills. I think its dis-ingenuous to deny this. It may be different in soma/mission, where the topography is completely different. But in the financial district (lots of 1 ways, no left turns, hills, tourists, etc) and around market street...the whole industry of bike messengers (ie, 30 years of history) is predicated on them not following traffi…

>I think its dis-ingenuous to deny this I didn't mention stop signs or red lights in my comment. I just pointed out that there's a large population of conscientious, safety-minded cyclists out there who get ignored in these types of discussions. Your invocation of law-breaking bike messengers in the second half of your comment is in fact a perfect recapitulation of the tendency I was referring to!

Previous commenter was giving an example of 'suicidal' riding. The fact that others ride in a responsible manner does not serve as a counter-factual. That's all I was saying. That, and I believe that there are reasons other than "irrational crazy" why people ride the way they do. Can you do a trakcstand on the side of a steep hill? How about ingress/egree from a clippless pedal? That stuff is hard and slow, so people take "shortcuts" around norms of doing things (eg, run stop signs, go up one-way streets, etc) that are more rational to them than "giving up the bike". Either because they need the money or just like the fitness/lifestyle/image etc. Its not even that you need to :"look down" on these guys...just you can't have a policy discussion and pretend they don't exist. =D

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#153

Post by rdsubhas »

revelation wrote: post #70

It's just completely surreal driving a bicycle in car traffic. The vast majority of car drivers simply lack the moral character and should not ever be allowed to drive such dangerous machinery. Cycle paths are optional here, and I very regularly opt out of driving on them because they are in a constant state of disarray, had snow and glass shoved on them, are too close to parking cars or end abruptly, forcing me to m…

I've been cycling for commute for the last 4 years in India, Chennai to be precise. And this is a problem with most car drivers, especially the posh ones.

And the pain... Cornering me into the extreme sides of the road, Honking as if I suddenly have to disappear from the road, Huge lines of cars causing traffic and most of them driving single, Splashing water, etc. I sometimes know some of them, but its as if they're a different person when they get into a car, somewhat inhuman.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#154

Post by hetman »

mikeash wrote: post #135
hetman wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must speak some mythical human language that makes sense :P

No way! Honestly, I'd be interested in knowing which of us is using it in the "normal" fashion. I really don't know. Or perhaps we both are and it depends on the region.

Yeah, it probably depends on a lot of factors, including social sub-cultures within dialects. To me using "I can't remember the last time X" to mean "I actually can't remember X happening" still sounds incredibly weird. Is that what you mean by the literal meaning?

To say the latter in conversation I would usually say "I can't actually remember X happening". I think "I cant remember the last time..." is roughly a shorthand for "I can't remember when the last time was that..." but who can be bothered actually saying all those words :P

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#155

Post by dwaltrip »

busterarm wrote: post #10

I got run over from behind by an MTA bus in New York several years ago and the bus driver drove away. I called the local police precinct (non-emergency line) to report it with the bus number (the 4 digit one on the back) and they repeatedly hung up on me when I told them I was run down by a city bus who drove away.

That is fucked up.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#156

Post by mikeash »

hetman wrote: post #154
mikeash wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way! Honestly, I'd be interested in knowing which of us is using it in the "normal" fashion. I really don't know. Or perhaps we both are and it depends on the region.

Yeah, it probably depends on a lot of factors, including social sub-cultures within dialects. To me using "I can't remember the last time X" to mean "I actually can't remember X happening" still sounds incredibly weird. Is that what you mean by the literal meaning? To say the latter in conversation I would usually say "I can't actually remember X happening". I think "I cant remember the last time..." is roughly a sho…

Yep, that's pretty much what I mean. I'm not sure whether or not I've ever seen a car run a red light in person (aside from the all-too-common squeaking through yellows), but in any case I can't remember any specific instance.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#157

Post by aaren »

mikeash wrote: post #44
dmm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see cars run stop signs and red lights all the time. I see cars speed everywhere, including neighborhoods with poor visibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism

I can't remember the last time I saw a car run a red light that wasn't just squeaking by a yellow. I can remember the last time I saw a bicycle do this, it was yesterday and the guy didn't even pretend to stop or care as he obstructed traffic that had the right of way. And not to mention that I see roughly one thousand times (literally) more cars than bicycles on the road. I don't doubt that there is a lot of confirm…

Maybe it depends where you live (UK here). I see multiple cars jump multiple different red lights everyday, when the lights are very definitely red.

Often the cars accelerate into the lights to get through.

I also see bikes jump through lights, but I don't usually find them as objectionable as they are i) going much slower, ii) weigh about 10% of the car, iii) have a massive interest in navigating the junction safely because of the mortal risk to themselves.

I get annoyed when I see either cars or bikes jumping lights that are for pedestrians.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#158

Post by SethMurphy »

FreakyT wrote: post #75
revelation wrote: post #70

It's just completely surreal driving a bicycle in car traffic. The vast majority of car drivers simply lack the moral character and should not ever be allowed to drive such dangerous machinery. Cycle paths are optional here, and I very regularly opt out of driving on them because they are in a constant state of disarray, had snow and glass shoved on them, are too close to parking cars or end abruptly, forcing me to m…

You've answered your own question. Why would people be upset when you've ignored the lane provided for you and instead decided to slow traffic to a grinding halt by taking up an entire lane? Certainly, it's unfortunate that the bike lane is poorly maintained, but to wholly place the blame on the drivers strikes me as questionable.

In NYC, where the legal speed limit is 30mph and traffic is usually slower a bike taking up the whole lane does nothing to slow the overall traffic flow. If a bike can keep up the minimum speed for traffic they deserve the same piece of the road a car has, just like a motorcycle or scooter. I agree it is almost always safer to be in the normal flow of traffic than on the fringe of the bike lane (in NYC at least).

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#159

Post by mikeash »

aaren wrote: post #157
mikeash wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't remember the last time I saw a car run a red light that wasn't just squeaking by a yellow. I can remember the last time I saw a bicycle do this, it was yesterday and the guy didn't even pretend to stop or care as he obstructed traffic that had the right of way. And not to mention that I see roughly one thousand times (literally) more cars than bicycles on the road. I don't doubt that there is a lot of confirm…

Maybe it depends where you live (UK here). I see multiple cars jump multiple different red lights everyday, when the lights are very definitely red. Often the cars accelerate into the lights to get through. I also see bikes jump through lights, but I don't usually find them as objectionable as they are i) going much slower, ii) weigh about 10% of the car, iii) have a massive interest in navigating the junction safely…

When you're talking about accelerating to get through, I take it you're discussing running of red lights quickly after a yellow.

While I certainly won't condone this, I also think it's a different class of problem from blatantly running a red light that has been red for a long time. Lights are timed to tolerate some abuse when it comes to trying to squeak through.

What I see bicycles do on a regular basis (and what this one particular jerk did the other day that really stuck out at me) is proceed through red lights that have been red for a long time. On a good day, they do it after stopping and waiting for a while. On a decent day, they check for traffic and only run the light if there's a hole. On a bad day, they just blow through.

I object for two reasons. First, even though they're likely to take the physical damage in a crash, they're still imposing potential emotional damage on others. Even if they're not at all at fault, a normal human will feel awful for hurting or killing a bicyclist while driving. Second, it gives all bicyclists a bad reputation, and that harms me when I'm on my bicycle.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#160

Post by collyw »

Hmmm. The final suggestion of sticking exactly to the letter of the law isn't in my opinion what makes me safe.

I break the rules. I stay out of the road of cars as much as I can. I believe this makes me safer.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/may/21/women-cyclists-mos...

This article shows that women have far more accidents than men, and it is suggested that it is because they don't break the rules as much.

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