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Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#51

Post by sliverstorm »

tsotha wrote: post #12

>So here’s my proposal: Every time you get on a bike, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange everywhere... Hahahahaha. I see a flaw in this plan. I don't see why the author views a lack of criminal charges as evidence of some kind of travesty of justice. If a cyclist gets run down by someone who didn't see him, that's an accident, not a crime.

I think this is the core of the discrepancy. Cyclists are so vulnerable that a half-second of inattention from either the driver or the cyclist can result in death.

Many of the errors that grievously injure cyclists would have resulted in a broken mirror and scratched paint, had it been car-on-car.

It seems likely to me jurors are recognizing this, and basing their decisions on actions rather that consequences. Which is not necessarily all that ridiculous.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#52

Post by chockablock »

kika wrote: post #17

No, it is not. But it is also not OK to prevent cyclists to kill themselves by car. I've witnessed an accident recently when the car in front of me hit a cyclist. He was: a) riding at night without lights b) running red light c) against the traffic d) without a helmet I'd say this guy (Stanford student, which IMHO implies some intellect) could serve as an encyclopedic definition of our Bay Area cyclist. Cyclists who…

Quite unfair. When I commuted by bike in SF for a couple years, I wore hi-vis clothing, front and rear lights even when it wasn't dark yet (especially at dusk!), and stuck to designated bike routes with calmer traffic when possible. And every day I saw hundreds of other cyclists just like me who didn't have a death wish.

The (small-y) yahoos who ride dangerously certainly stand out more, but it's depressing to have folks like you throw up their hands and say, effectively: Too bad there's nothing we can do to make cycling safer, since too many cyclists just "want to die".

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#53

Post by nmcfarl »

nostromo wrote: post #38

This article is a string of anecdotes presented as a trend. Where's the hard data? In any case, the truth is, accidents do happen. What would throwing the teenager in the article (who was in an accident with a cyclist) in jail accomplish? Should getting in an accident be a life-ending event?

I don't know - but I do know that if no one goes to jail for reckless driving, people will continue to drive recklessly. And it's not just bicyclists who die from reckless driving - lots of motorists die as well. And yet, hardly anyone is prosecuted, and people continue to drive tired, distracted or otherwise incapacitated. And people die. And society seems to consider it the price of doing business.

Presumably when we start to care, we'll start to prosecute, and people will be a lot more careful behind the wheel.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#54

Post by dmm »

kika wrote: post #35
dmm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see cars run stop signs and red lights all the time. I see cars speed everywhere, including neighborhoods with poor visibility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism

I see them too. I also see them got ticketed heavily and some even lost the privilege to drive. But I can't say that vast majority of cars run stop signs. Your link is not relevant, sorry.

You're not a cyclist so you judge them differently than you judge cars. Cyclists do get ticketed, even when they are commiting crimes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhWCFi3JIcU

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#55

Post by hetman »

thetrb wrote: post #11

Are there any statistics what happens to drivers at fault that kill another car driver? What would be the "best" outcome in these cases? Do you want to throw someone in jail for making an unintentional mistake? Should there just be a civil lawsuit where either the driver or the insurance pays to the victim's family? I don't have an answer to that, just asking for opinions.

How do we determine "unintentional"? Does having a blase attitude towards the road qualify? Most people don't even internalise the fact they're driving a ball of steel weighing over a tonne with the potential to mame or kill. Is that entirely their fault or of a society that treats driving as a right rather than a privilege and doesn't bother to educate the driver with advanced skills to handle the death machine.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#56

Post by rcthompson »

kika wrote: post #17

No, it is not. But it is also not OK to prevent cyclists to kill themselves by car. I've witnessed an accident recently when the car in front of me hit a cyclist. He was: a) riding at night without lights b) running red light c) against the traffic d) without a helmet I'd say this guy (Stanford student, which IMHO implies some intellect) could serve as an encyclopedic definition of our Bay Area cyclist. Cyclists who…

No one is suggesting that the driver should be held accountable by default for a collision with a cyclist. But it would be nice if society even entertained the possibility that a driver could be at fault.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#57

Post by socillion »

casual_slacker wrote: post #43
kika wrote: post #17

No, it is not. But it is also not OK to prevent cyclists to kill themselves by car. I've witnessed an accident recently when the car in front of me hit a cyclist. He was: a) riding at night without lights b) running red light c) against the traffic d) without a helmet I'd say this guy (Stanford student, which IMHO implies some intellect) could serve as an encyclopedic definition of our Bay Area cyclist. Cyclists who…

When you say "running stop signs", do you mean a rolling slow-down/speed up if they're the first at the intersection? I do that all the time, not sure if it's legal but it's a pain to stop fully. With cars around I always stop, especially in SF I'd be insane not to.

Rolling stops on bicycle are only legal in one state - Idaho.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#58

Post by fumar »

I have ridden a bike year around in Chicago for over four years. I have been hit once by a car, and once by a motorcycle. Both times I managed to walk with only scrapes and bruises.

What is interesting is both of those times, I was in a bike lane with rear and front lights. When the car hit me I flew over its hood and landed several feet away. I had never heard of a car/driver being held responsible for a cycling accident. You could say I am conditioned to believe that drivers are never at fault. Once, I stood up from the fall and realized I was in working condition, I was ready to leave without calling the cops. My girlfriend had been on her bike riding behind me. She called the cops.

The driver said it was an accident. Accidents happen... I know the risks involved with riding. The cops wrote a report stating in a heavily biased manner, how I was riding too-fast for a car to notice me. Yep, me a guy on a bike with a bright flashing light, going no more than 12 MPH was in the wrong. I wasn't even mad. I felt great just to be alive.

Long story short her insurance paid for most of the damages, including a bent bike frame, ripped pants, and broken prescription glasses. But, had my lady not called the cops, I would've been left without a bike and without glasses.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#59

Post by tsotha »

rcthompson wrote: post #21
tsotha wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or society has de facto decided there's no point in sending someone to jail for a legitimate accident.

So you're saying that 100% of collisions between cars and bikes are either the cyclist's fault or "legitimate accidents", and 0% are the motorist's fault?

There's a big difference between civil liability and criminal culpability. If you're not drunk or driving recklessly, and you have no criminal intent, hitting someone isn't illegal even if you're 100% at fault. Nor should it be.

Re: Is It O.K. to Kill Cyclists?

#60

Post by sliverstorm »

thetrb wrote: post #11

Are there any statistics what happens to drivers at fault that kill another car driver? What would be the "best" outcome in these cases? Do you want to throw someone in jail for making an unintentional mistake? Should there just be a civil lawsuit where either the driver or the insurance pays to the victim's family? I don't have an answer to that, just asking for opinions.

A key difference, I think, is when one driver kills another there is often a more grievous error involved. With cyclists on the other hand, it only takes a tiny error at low speeds to have a fatal accident. I'm thinking the magnitude of the error might be playing into verdicts.
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