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Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

economist.com

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Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#21

Post by lepukowsky »

ckuehne wrote: post #20
swombat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more on education. Putting a strong emphasis on educating your children to themselves be successful must surely be a strong success factor for them - and something they're likely to do in turn for their own children. Conversely, neglecting your children's education is also likely to be passed on, and also likely to have significant effect. By "education" I don't just mean what happens at school - most…

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking" Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence .

That makes no sense. How could one group possibly slowly evolve over a great period of time to be any different than anyone else?

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#22

Post by antocv »

varjag wrote: post #12
alextingle wrote: post #5

I think using professions ("lawyer") as a proxy for privilege is a little bit problematic. I'm sure I could have been a lawyer, but I never considered it because I'd never met a lawyer. It just wasn't on my radar. Instead, I became an engineer. My grandfather & father had been engineers, so working in industry, making things was something that I could conceive. I'm sure I didn't suffer financially - I'm better off th…

Well this is highly anecdotal: none of my parents or grandparents were engineers, yet here I am. The lawyer practice is structured differently though: there's limited supply of positions at law firms where the money are, and without connected family the chance of fresh grad getting there is slim. Same with banking in Scandinavia: certain banks' departments annual retreats can feel more like family reunions.

Yea my dad a carpenter, mom cleaning lady, grandparents farmers without iron tools until their middle ages, myself saw a computer first time at age 14. Yet Im software engineer and siblings too have master degrees in medicine and philosophy.

Heh. just another small anecdote.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#23

Post by lepukowsky »

antocv wrote: post #22
varjag wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this is highly anecdotal: none of my parents or grandparents were engineers, yet here I am. The lawyer practice is structured differently though: there's limited supply of positions at law firms where the money are, and without connected family the chance of fresh grad getting there is slim. Same with banking in Scandinavia: certain banks' departments annual retreats can feel more like family reunions.

Yea my dad a carpenter, mom cleaning lady, grandparents farmers without iron tools until their middle ages, myself saw a computer first time at age 14. Yet Im software engineer and siblings too have master degrees in medicine and philosophy. Heh. just another small anecdote.

The first comment on the actual article (Econmist) page is thus:

"I suspect that looking at incomes (or genes) rather misses the root of social mobility or lack of it. I think the more major difference is simply cultural."

Maybe you should give credit where credit is due? Perhaps you are being sarcastic but it seems like everyone in your family has noble professions, at least by my standards...

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#24

Post by ckuehne »

lepukowsky wrote: post #21
ckuehne wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking" Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence .

That makes no sense. How could one group possibly slowly evolve over a great period of time to be any different than anyone else?

What exactly do you think "makes no sense"? That two groups could evolve different traits over time? If so, how would you explain differences in skin color between West Africans and Northern Europeans? Or differences in lactose tolerance between different ethnic groups [1]?

[1] http://www.foodreactions.org/intolerance/lactose/prevalence....

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#25

Post by ilaksh »

lepukowsky wrote: post #11
hrktb wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main point of equality it to allow a brilliant child of a not so brilliant parents to bring as much value to society as he can. If a very bright kid is born in a farmer's family, we want he/she to become a top member of the society and work on the hard to solve problems, and not become a KFC store manager. Equality of chance and fluidity is as important to society as it is to individuals. Of course there is a pri…

Do you feel this way from a societal, "consequentialist" point of view, meaning that doing such would necessarily maximize the quality of society on the whole? If so, what if there is an opportunity cost by which such a moral choice stimies your next cancer cure or breakthrough in clean energy? Or perhaps, instead, do you feel that the overall effect on society is not as important as the individual's "right" to maxim…

Although the authors of the article leave a bit of room for attributing a lack of upward mobility to circumstantial disadvantage, you seem to be operating from an almost eugenicist point-of-view with the assumption that position is almost entirely based on inherited ability.

Those studies don't prove anything but I believe that culture and circumstance play a large part in determining mobility.

The funny thing is that in ten or twenty years when artificial super-intelligence arrives, everyone, even rich intellectuals, will be, relatively speaking, mentally challenged, compared to the AIs. Please review this video to get a good idea of what I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_Juh7Xh_70 (Unless we augment our intelligence with implanted technology of some sort.)

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#26

Post by barry-cotter »

lepukowsky wrote: post #21
ckuehne wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking" Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence .

That makes no sense. How could one group possibly slowly evolve over a great period of time to be any different than anyone else?

Bravo, you have just disproved evolution.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#27

Post by MadDog55 »

ckuehne wrote: post #24
lepukowsky wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. How could one group possibly slowly evolve over a great period of time to be any different than anyone else?

What exactly do you think "makes no sense"? That two groups could evolve different traits over time? If so, how would you explain differences in skin color between West Africans and Northern Europeans? Or differences in lactose tolerance between different ethnic groups [1]? [1] http://www.foodreactions.org/intolerance/lactose/prevalence....

Hilariously, I think he is just high. Read through his other posts.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#28

Post by philwelch »

ckuehne wrote: post #20
swombat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more on education. Putting a strong emphasis on educating your children to themselves be successful must surely be a strong success factor for them - and something they're likely to do in turn for their own children. Conversely, neglecting your children's education is also likely to be passed on, and also likely to have significant effect. By "education" I don't just mean what happens at school - most…

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking" Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence .

Which seems like the result of generations of selective pressure exerted by a culture that values education and critical thinking.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#29

Post by bitdiddle »

ckuehne wrote: post #20
swombat wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more on education. Putting a strong emphasis on educating your children to themselves be successful must surely be a strong success factor for them - and something they're likely to do in turn for their own children. Conversely, neglecting your children's education is also likely to be passed on, and also likely to have significant effect. By "education" I don't just mean what happens at school - most…

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking" Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence .

Interesting that Emmy Noether was Ashkenazi, I knew of Einstein and Bernstein. This theory has been around for a while, not sure what to make of it given what we know now about IQ.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#30

Post by lepukowsky »

ilaksh wrote: post #25
lepukowsky wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel this way from a societal, "consequentialist" point of view, meaning that doing such would necessarily maximize the quality of society on the whole? If so, what if there is an opportunity cost by which such a moral choice stimies your next cancer cure or breakthrough in clean energy? Or perhaps, instead, do you feel that the overall effect on society is not as important as the individual's "right" to maxim…

Although the authors of the article leave a bit of room for attributing a lack of upward mobility to circumstantial disadvantage, you seem to be operating from an almost eugenicist point-of-view with the assumption that position is almost entirely based on inherited ability. Those studies don't prove anything but I believe that culture and circumstance play a large part in determining mobility. The funny thing is tha…

I at no point advocated eugenics and I actually find that a bit insulting. I quoted the article directly which stated (as I quote again for the space-cadets among us):

"Such competence is potentially heritable and is reinforced by the human tendency to mate with partners of similar traits and ability."

I simply alluded to (and then later asked) my respondent to what extent he or she is willing to defend equality over an individual's rights. Please do not misrepresent my words. Maybe you should try staying on topic before pointing me to some far-off, yet to be encountered political dilemma? I also pointed out that despite our modern acceptance of evolution, the “enlightened” liberal-democratic west is in absolute cognitive dissonance when it comes to reconciling such theories with the various inequalities that arise between peoples. Perhaps you can enlighten us all with your futuristic wizardry? I'm betting not...

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