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Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

economist.com

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Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#11

Post by lepukowsky »

hrktb wrote: post #9
lepukowsky wrote: post #4

"Such competence is potentially heritable and is reinforced by the human tendency to mate with partners of similar traits and ability." I think this raises a very important question: How far are we willing to go to pursue equality in the modern age? It seems that -- generally -- there is an inevitable tendency of humans to mate with someone of similar "stature" or "capacity". Of course, like any generalization, there…

The main point of equality it to allow a brilliant child of a not so brilliant parents to bring as much value to society as he can. If a very bright kid is born in a farmer's family, we want he/she to become a top member of the society and work on the hard to solve problems, and not become a KFC store manager. Equality of chance and fluidity is as important to society as it is to individuals. Of course there is a pri…

Do you feel this way from a societal, "consequentialist" point of view, meaning that doing such would necessarily maximize the quality of society on the whole? If so, what if there is an opportunity cost by which such a moral choice stimies your next cancer cure or breakthrough in clean energy?

Or perhaps, instead, do you feel that the overall effect on society is not as important as the individual's "right" to maximize his or her own opportunity? And if so, what about some other individual's right to choose the best available mate?

Or is there a third way?

Thank you for the response.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#12

Post by varjag »

alextingle wrote: post #5

I think using professions ("lawyer") as a proxy for privilege is a little bit problematic. I'm sure I could have been a lawyer, but I never considered it because I'd never met a lawyer. It just wasn't on my radar. Instead, I became an engineer. My grandfather & father had been engineers, so working in industry, making things was something that I could conceive. I'm sure I didn't suffer financially - I'm better off th…

Well this is highly anecdotal: none of my parents or grandparents were engineers, yet here I am.

The lawyer practice is structured differently though: there's limited supply of positions at law firms where the money are, and without connected family the chance of fresh grad getting there is slim. Same with banking in Scandinavia: certain banks' departments annual retreats can feel more like family reunions.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#13

Post by varjag »

VladRussian2 wrote: post #7

it would be interesting to see as a baseline the study of for how many generations descendants of an alpha lion/wolf/gorilla get into the alpha position themselves, if any.

It's precisely the opposite thing though: success through inherent qualities vs via available social context.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#14

Post by thewarrior »

"Such competence is potentially heritable and is reinforced by the human tendency to mate with partners of similar traits and ability."

So does this mean that over tens of thousands of years rich people could evolve into a separate race ?

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#15

Post by lepukowsky »

thewarrior wrote: post #14

"Such competence is potentially heritable and is reinforced by the human tendency to mate with partners of similar traits and ability." So does this mean that over tens of thousands of years rich people could evolve into a separate race ?

According to Wikipedia, that question doesn't really matter: "race has no taxonomic significance and that all living humans belong to the same species" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28human_classification%29

I suppose if some group of people got themselves into their own species, where they could not in fact mate with what we know as "human", it would be a pretty big deal.

Edit-- I quoted the same line... please feel free to respond to my comment below.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#16

Post by swombat »

omegant wrote: post #3

It's amazing how this works, I've been Paying some attention to this stuff for some time, and it is mostly like that. I've observed 3rd generation families of wealthy landlords and/or bankers (the ones that made the fortune). It's just anecdotal, but the ones that put more effort and attention on education and hardwork (not having access to the money till they are out of the university and have proved their capabilit…

Couldn't agree more on education. Putting a strong emphasis on educating your children to themselves be successful must surely be a strong success factor for them - and something they're likely to do in turn for their own children. Conversely, neglecting your children's education is also likely to be passed on, and also likely to have significant effect.

By "education" I don't just mean what happens at school - most school systems provide only the thinnest veneer of "education", which includes many things not taught at school, like critical thinking, social skills, being widely read, broad general knowledge, the habit of trying to solve problems yourself, and many other features of people in "elite" positions.

For example, one might notice the strange preponderance of Jewish people in those "elite" positions, both academic and artistic and commercial and political. This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking, probably because of thousands of years of history where Jews might be chased out of their homes by mobs with pitchforks and torches, and leave with nothing but what was in their heads. In that context, social mobility is total: you rise or fall to the level of what you can carry inside your skull.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#17

Post by swombat »

hrktb wrote: post #9
lepukowsky wrote: post #4

"Such competence is potentially heritable and is reinforced by the human tendency to mate with partners of similar traits and ability." I think this raises a very important question: How far are we willing to go to pursue equality in the modern age? It seems that -- generally -- there is an inevitable tendency of humans to mate with someone of similar "stature" or "capacity". Of course, like any generalization, there…

The main point of equality it to allow a brilliant child of a not so brilliant parents to bring as much value to society as he can. If a very bright kid is born in a farmer's family, we want he/she to become a top member of the society and work on the hard to solve problems, and not become a KFC store manager. Equality of chance and fluidity is as important to society as it is to individuals. Of course there is a pri…

> The main point of equality it to allow a brilliant child of a not so brilliant parents to bring as much value to society as he can. If a very bright kid is born in a farmer's family, we want he/she to become a top member of the society and work on the hard to solve problems, and not become a KFC store manager.

As pointed out elsewhere, the problem with that is education. The school system provides a very poor excuse for "education", and if the parents don't supplement that (as well-educated parents likely will), that naturally hampers the bright-child-in-a-poor-family example.

There are exceptions of course, there will always be - but to solve the problem at a larger scale, what must be solved is the education problem. At the moment, 90+% of "education" must still be provided by the parents. Educated people understand that the school system is a parody of education, and so tend to compensate for that. But how can uneducated people understand that and compensate for it?

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#18

Post by VladRussian2 »

varjag wrote: post #13
VladRussian2 wrote: post #7

it would be interesting to see as a baseline the study of for how many generations descendants of an alpha lion/wolf/gorilla get into the alpha position themselves, if any.

It's precisely the opposite thing though: success through inherent qualities vs via available social context.

the article didn't point to any evidence that some human genetic lines stay at the top for generations due to social context vs. say inherent qualities. The article pointed only to correlation. Such correlation doesn't means causation, especially considering that the social context may be a direct result of inherent qualities (while inherent qualities may be only very indirect result of social context). This is why comparison with baseline where we _think_ inherent qualities play significant role is important.

If, for example, aristocracy like English lords started (or was significantly affected through such a process) as most successful fighters, and didn't have significant gene mix with "lower" classes, when it would be very reasonably to suppose that their inherent qualities is somewhat different.

Re: Surnames offer depressing clues to extent of social mobility over generations

#20

Post by ckuehne »

swombat wrote: post #16
omegant wrote: post #3

It's amazing how this works, I've been Paying some attention to this stuff for some time, and it is mostly like that. I've observed 3rd generation families of wealthy landlords and/or bankers (the ones that made the fortune). It's just anecdotal, but the ones that put more effort and attention on education and hardwork (not having access to the money till they are out of the university and have proved their capabilit…

Couldn't agree more on education. Putting a strong emphasis on educating your children to themselves be successful must surely be a strong success factor for them - and something they're likely to do in turn for their own children. Conversely, neglecting your children's education is also likely to be passed on, and also likely to have significant effect. By "education" I don't just mean what happens at school - most…

"This is perhaps more easily understood when you know that the Jewish culture places enormous focus on educating the next generation and on critical thinking"

Or maybe it is even better understood in terms of genetic differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence.

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