A culture of beer and overtime • Hacker News Board

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#191

Post by ralmeida » Fri, Nov 08, 2013, 9:14 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #153

jaf656s wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were treated fairly. Bluntly but fairly. When you turn in your resignation, your notice is just an offer of a grace period. They are not obligated to take you up on your offer.

Depends. Some countries will require you to work a certain amount of time. And some contracts will require you to work after handing in a notice.

Brazil requires one month of work after notice is given by either side. The employer may give up the additional month if the employee resigns, and the employee may choose to deduce the pay of this month from their severance if they don't want to stay. The employer may also choose to terminate immediately and pay the wage of the additional month even if the worker doesn't work.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#192

Post by ryan-allen » Fri, Nov 08, 2013, 9:23 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #97

marcus_holmes wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with this completely. Cultural fit is (imo) the most important hiring criteria (way way more important than experience with the language). Employees are going to be part of your team for at least two years. If your team can't stand them then that's going to be painful. However, "Cultural Fit" used as an excuse to prevent team diversity is bullshit. Every study done on it has proven that diversity increases team…

Every study done on it has proven that diversity increases team productivity. There is a major file drawer effect here. Writing a study proving the opposite is a career limiting move.

Good old political correctness. I'd say the need to be PC is part of the reason why companies use the excuse of cultural fit as a reason to axe someone.

"We have these other prejudices but we can't tell you what those are because if we do, you have grounds to sue us, so instead, we're going to simply chalk it up to a poor cultural fit."

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#193

Post by notacoward » Fri, Nov 08, 2013, 10:27 PM UTC

swayvil wrote: post #172

notacoward wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did in the sense that doing it once stopped the bitching. Since I clearly had both the ability and will to do such things when needed, my failure/refusal to do them at other times could not be construed as lack of those characteristics. Obviously there was a cost, and continuing to put in long hours under less exceptional circumstances would have been a very different matter, but that one time had an effect that I…

I have the ability to eat dog shit, but...

So you can eat dog shit and you can troll. Anything else?

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#194

Post by swayvil » Fri, Nov 08, 2013, 10:51 PM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #193

swayvil wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the ability to eat dog shit, but...

So you can eat dog shit and you can troll. Anything else?

I know that you think it's admirable or noble to "work really hard" and you probably have this whole heroic narrative running in your head; but it's actually pure bunk.

Your attitude is the product of worker-motivation-propaganda. You have been brainfucked.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#195

Post by lsc » Fri, Nov 08, 2013, 10:56 PM UTC

fragsworth wrote: post #54

lsc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, first? I agree that "cultural fit" is bullshit; It's the result of people placing the comfort of working with people "like them" over actually getting things done. however... >I see it as a byproduct of capitalism, bosses will be bosses, and I've seen people trashed with 'fairness' as often as I have seen them trashed with non-conformity to whatever the ones in charge (or even the ones in the middle) care about…

"Cultural fit" isn't bullshit, it's just a euphemism for how reasonable someone's personality is. It's easier to say "I don't think they'll fit our culture" instead of saying "their personality sucks"

well, just be aware that when you say that you care about "cultural fit" I (and many others) assume it's code for "I'm a racist/sexist twit"

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#196

Post by notacoward » Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 12:08 AM UTC

swayvil wrote: post #194

notacoward wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can eat dog shit and you can troll. Anything else?

I know that you think it's admirable or noble to "work really hard" and you probably have this whole heroic narrative running in your head; but it's actually pure bunk. Your attitude is the product of worker-motivation-propaganda. You have been brainfucked.

You couldn't be more wrong. I was writing about one specific incident early in my career, quite likely (judging by your lack of maturity) while you were still in kindergarten. The whole point of the exercise was to put in the extra effort once when it really mattered, so that I wouldn't be subjected to the "work hard all the time" grind that has become such a dysfunctional norm in the startup world. It worked.

Since then, I've done a lot more than most of my peers to maintain a decent work/life balance. For example, when my daughter was born I negotiated a shift from my role as system architect responsible for my company's whole product to an individual-contributor role that gave me more freedom to spend time at home. If you think that's no big deal, try it some time. Right this second I'm on a sabbatical, and when I return it will be at less than standard full-time hours because life is just too short to spend all of it at work. I've even written about it.

http://pl.atyp.us/2013-10-leaning-out.html

In a nutshell, you are completely and utterly full of crap. I've done more and written more to fight the "heroic programmer" mythos than you ever will. You interpreted my anecdote in almost exactly the opposite of the way it was meant, and then made up some extra stuff besides, just so you could present your commonplace (and probably borrowed) observations as insight. Piss off.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#197

Post by swayvil » Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 12:18 AM UTC

notacoward wrote: post #196

swayvil wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that you think it's admirable or noble to "work really hard" and you probably have this whole heroic narrative running in your head; but it's actually pure bunk. Your attitude is the product of worker-motivation-propaganda. You have been brainfucked.

You couldn't be more wrong. I was writing about one specific incident early in my career, quite likely (judging by your lack of maturity) while you were still in kindergarten. The whole point of the exercise was to put in the extra effort once when it really mattered, so that I wouldn't be subjected to the "work hard all the time" grind that has become such a dysfunctional norm in the startup world. It worked. Since…

You have impressed me and shown me the error of my ways at the same time.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#198

Post by lsc » Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 1:07 AM UTC

ryan-allen wrote: post #55

lsc wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, first? I agree that "cultural fit" is bullshit; It's the result of people placing the comfort of working with people "like them" over actually getting things done. however... >I see it as a byproduct of capitalism, bosses will be bosses, and I've seen people trashed with 'fairness' as often as I have seen them trashed with non-conformity to whatever the ones in charge (or even the ones in the middle) care about…

Ah, I suppose what I mean by capitalism is a more pathological optimisation of employees with authority. If you think of a company as something that is optimising for profitability through not only producing something, but by doing everything in their power to stifle competition, by preventing competitors from succeeding by any legal means, then you can look at an employee and their behaviour in a similar matter. Peo…

>So employees with limited power and authority over their little domain, are going to act in their own interests by as you say hiring people like themselves, by creating a culture that matches their values and keeps outsiders at bay, and by ousting anything that threatens the status quo.

The thing you are missing is that while I may benefit when /other people/ discriminate in favor of my group, as an individual? I actually lose out if I discriminate based on irrelevant factors.

(Now, if there was some kind of enforcement of this clan altruism; if I stopped getting the in-group benefits because I refused to place the interests of the group before my own interests, then it'd be different. But I haven't seen any cases, at least in my career, where that sort of defection is punished.)

Now, there are all sorts of emotional/cultural reasons to discriminate against outsiders, if you have a strong group identity, but it's certainly not in your financial best interest.

Trade unions don't have a significantly better history with discrimination than management does. This problem goes far beyond monetary self-interest.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#199

Post by bhickey » Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 1:58 AM UTC

devin wrote: post #62

bhickey wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or he expected them to screw him.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but that's not my read. Options given the amount of time he was with the organization? Maybe, but highly unlikely.

It isn't my read either. I just wanted to point out that the statement wasn't necessarily as prejudicial as the parent made it out to be.

Re: A culture of beer and overtime

#200

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 2:25 AM UTC

Domenic_S wrote: post #174

jacques_chester wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you agree to indemnify them against defamation claims, I'm sure lots of people would be happy to name names.

I don't think that's an issue. What's the company going to do, prove what a great place to work they are by suing a former employee? I just think that if you're so moved by your experience that you need to write a blog post about it, you should say who you're writing about so others may try and avoid your fate.

> I don't think that's an issue. What's the company going to do, prove what a great place to work they are by suing a former employee?

Yes. Because if they win, the person making the claims has to retract them publicly and the original statements are usually destroyed. The threshold of defamation varies from place to place -- in some jurisdictions truth is only a partial defence.

And, if they genuinely are pricks, they will sue because they are.

In the meantime, the respondent has to rack up hairy legal bills.

> I just think that if you're so moved by your experience that you need to write a blog post about it, you should say who you're writing about so others may try and avoid your fate.

You're asking them to externalise the benefit and internalise the risk. Most ordinary people don't have the financial position to sustain it.

Defamation is serious business. It can really smash your finances, even if you win. A spiteful company, of the sort people write about, is the sort that sues at the drop of a hat.