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Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

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Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#61

Post by mlyang »

Once you factor in genetic selection (Gattaca style -- many aspects of which we are ALREADY capable of), inequality will not just become a matter of knowledge/education/motivation as this article states, but BIOLOGICAL - and that will really be the turning point in global inequality.

This is-- from a scientific perspective-- not far off at all, and we haven't figured out the ethical system that can help us navigate this coming phenomenon.

Even start-ups like Counsyl, which are doing great work with respect to genetics and family planning, are a part of this movement towards genetic variation between the rich and poor.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#62

Post by [deleted] »

gadders wrote: post #30
drzaiusapelord wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern poverty line is renting a cheap urban apartment and eating 3 decent meals a day. We're pretty far from shanty towns and starvation. The poverty line for a 3 person home (mom, dad, kid) is 23k. That is far from wonderful, but in many markets that's a fair bit of cash, especially if you consider food stamps, section 8, state aid, tax breaks, socialized schooling, federal lunches, etc. I'd rather be poor toda…

And I'd rather be poor in the US or UK than in, say, Somalia.

[deleted]

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#63

Post by randomdata »

nathan_long wrote: post #51
randomdata wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I feel like we've been here before. The tractor eventually put ~90% of the population out of work. If you were someone without a tractor, you'd be watching your neighbours become more wealthy while you'd be left worrying about completely losing your livelihood.

Even if that's true, 90% of the population did not stay out of work, and the average person today has far more material comforts and leisure time than they did before the tractor. A rising tide lifts all boats, even if some are temporarily waterlogged.

That's pretty much where I was going with my comment. The tractor displaced people from the work they knew, but it allowed them to find new forms of productivity over the long term and do things well beyond what ever could have accomplished while guiding horses around the farm. I imagine individuals felt some big pains during the transition though.

Even if the computer can give rise to certain groups today, is there any reason to believe things will not even out again? The people losing their farms back in the day probably felt much like those being devalued by computers feel today.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#64

Post by humanrebar »

randomdata wrote: post #39
_delirium wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this really relates to merit or shortcomings or being your fault . I'm good at technology, and I make money at it, but I don't see this as a particularly great merit or the result of my hard work and prescience. I've liked and been adept with computers since I was 4 or 5; I'm "the kind of person who enjoys reading programming manuals" you mention. I'm no good at drawing, though, and I'm not particula…

You are certainly lucky that your natural interests lead you to something lucrative, but you are good with technology because you presumably spent considerable amount of time practising with the technology. If you spent more time drawing, you would eventually become good at that too. If we imagine technology jobs dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow and drawing suddenly became a high paying career, would you in…

> You are certainly lucky that your natural interests lead you to something lucrative

There is certainly luck involved, but chalking all success up to fortunate nerd-dom is a simplification. Also consider the importance of avoiding pitfalls like drug abuse, crippling debt, and unexpected pregnancies. Also, millions of students do boring and pointless schoolwork every day to improve their grades so they can get into a good college, not because they were born with the "I like dioramas" gene. Calling success luck diminishes that brand of responsibility and hard work.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#65

Post by kgmpers »

MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #4

I call bullshit on this. The nordic countries have a pretty great tech sector too, and they don't suffer from this. Its a policy thing, and I was always under the impression that this is a choice that the USA has made consciously, and is widely acepted as a given - that cutthroat capitalism creates greater inequality, with (maybe) bigger growth rates.

I was going to say this.

A good book on the policies that helped kill unions and weaken the middle class is Who Stole the American Dream by Hedrick Smith.

http://www.amazon.com/Stole-American-Dream-Hedrick-Smith-ebo...

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#66

Post by sanskritabelt »

crazygringo wrote: post #3

> Smart software... is ushering in an era of "hyper-meritocracy." > ...the cognitive requirements of working with smart software... > Online education... will only deepen inequality... Because of the premium it places on conscientiousness. some people are pure self-starters... But at the same time, I think it’s a pretty small percentage of the population. These are all excellent points. It's funny -- centuries ago, w…

If the current situation were in fact a meritocracy, wouldn't we expect to see a lot more social mobility than we're seeing now? (http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2013/06/13-facts-h...) (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/17/social-immobility-c...)

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#67

Post by normloman »

gadders wrote: post #13

Good example of Betteridge's Law. Also - inequality is a red herring. As long as the poorest people are doing better, it's irrelevant that Bill Gates is a Billionaire.

Still relevant because Gate's billions buys him a bigger megaphone. Even if the poor do better, Gate's money can buy power, and in a democracy, it's dangerous when so few people concentrate so much power.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#68

Post by svachalek »

crazygringo wrote: post #3

> Smart software... is ushering in an era of "hyper-meritocracy." > ...the cognitive requirements of working with smart software... > Online education... will only deepen inequality... Because of the premium it places on conscientiousness. some people are pure self-starters... But at the same time, I think it’s a pretty small percentage of the population. These are all excellent points. It's funny -- centuries ago, w…

If you're the kind of person who enjoys reading programming manuals and studying Fourier transformations for fun, you have a solid middle income career ahead of you, and if you take some chances you may even hit a minor stock jackpot somewhere along the line. Which is great, just don't confuse that with being an investment banker.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#69

Post by _delirium »

humanrebar wrote: post #64
randomdata wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are certainly lucky that your natural interests lead you to something lucrative, but you are good with technology because you presumably spent considerable amount of time practising with the technology. If you spent more time drawing, you would eventually become good at that too. If we imagine technology jobs dropped off the face of the earth tomorrow and drawing suddenly became a high paying career, would you in…

> You are certainly lucky that your natural interests lead you to something lucrative There is certainly luck involved, but chalking all success up to fortunate nerd-dom is a simplification. Also consider the importance of avoiding pitfalls like drug abuse, crippling debt, and unexpected pregnancies. Also, millions of students do boring and pointless schoolwork every day to improve their grades so they can get into a…

Isn't Valley culture pretty much the opposite of what you describe, for better or worse? Classic engineering culture does have some of those features: work hard at school, get good grades, get into a good college, work hard in college, do an internship, graduate with a good GPA, get a good white-collar job.

Valley startup culture seems to sort of hate that culture, though, and considers it a kind of obsolete old-people culture that needs to be (wait for it) disrupted.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#70

Post by rayiner »

humanrebar wrote: post #45
rayiner wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Automobiles have not done wonderful things for minority groups in inner cities. There have always been ghettos and rich areas, of course, but they used to be right next to each other. Now, you have middle class and rich people living in suburban enclaves which they protect by lobbying to keep them inaccessible except by car. The advent of the car has been incredibly damaging and polarizing to the American social fabr…

That may be true in some respects, but things like refrigerated shipping, ambulances, sanitation (cars do not defecate in the street), and modern logistics have both saved lives and decreased the cost of essentials, even for the car-less urban poor. I'm also skeptical that the balkanization of modern postal codes could be a result of the car. I currently hypothesize that that it is a result of postmodern influence on…

My point of course isn't that cars are uniformly bad, or even bad on the whole, but rather that they've had a major negative influence on a certain part of our social structure that cannot be ignored. We've gained much in terms of convenience and safety, but we've lost something real. A kid growing up in a suburb can go years without seeing a poor person or a homeless person. All those benefits of cars are real, but so too are the social consequences.

I'm not a luddite, but I'm not a believer in glossing over the social challenges created by technology. Recognizing those problems doesn't mean necessarily adopting an interventionist approach to solving them, of course.

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