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Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

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Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#51

Post by nathan_long »

randomdata wrote: post #10
[deleted] wrote: post #5

[deleted]

Yeah, I feel like we've been here before. The tractor eventually put ~90% of the population out of work. If you were someone without a tractor, you'd be watching your neighbours become more wealthy while you'd be left worrying about completely losing your livelihood.

Even if that's true, 90% of the population did not stay out of work, and the average person today has far more material comforts and leisure time than they did before the tractor.

A rising tide lifts all boats, even if some are temporarily waterlogged.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#52

Post by ronaldx »

ig1 wrote: post #21

There was an article in the economist a couple of weeks ago which argued that because growing inequality was a global phenomenon it was unlikely to be related to tax policies, labour laws, etc. but rather due to global factors such as technology and globalization. On a microlevel the argument seems to make sense the middle-market jobs are the ones that are being wiped out and having salaries driven-down by out-sourci…

OK, but globally inequality isn't growing, by many measures. Hans Rosling illustrated that this week[1].

World income now fits a more continuous curve compared to the rich- and poor- of the past. World equality has presumably been helped by out-sourcing: it's just that some of the 'equality' is no longer owned by the West.

[1]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24835822

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#53

Post by VMG »

pradocchia wrote: post #12
crazygringo wrote: post #3

> Smart software... is ushering in an era of "hyper-meritocracy." > ...the cognitive requirements of working with smart software... > Online education... will only deepen inequality... Because of the premium it places on conscientiousness. some people are pure self-starters... But at the same time, I think it’s a pretty small percentage of the population. These are all excellent points. It's funny -- centuries ago, w…

Some day, when the AI systems take over, and the world no longer needs so many people that enjoy reading programming manuals and studying Fourier transformations, the great bulk of programmers will be lined up and shot, in retribution for their years of pampered arrogance. And it won't be the people we put out of work, it will be the people who paid us, who will have long since had enough of it.

But the programmers will have encoded preferential treatment for their class into the AI.

Checkmate unmeritants.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#54

Post by nathan_long »

ForHackernews wrote: post #41
nathan_long wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find your comment bizarre. A baker doesn't spend $X on flour unless she can make more than that from selling the bread. Companies don't pay programmers big bucks and give nice benefits unless they make a lot more off the software programmers build. Nobody is getting ripped off here.

What a joke. What you've written could be said of any well-paid job right up until it's eliminated: "Telegraph operators were paid well and felt themselves part of an honored profession. It was a good way to make a living for a lot of people."[1] Companies would be THRILLED to eliminate developers and no longer have to pay them. And plenty of people are working on that problem: "Imagine sitting at a Salesforce event…

Sure, if companies could do without paying programmers, they would and should.

That doesn't change the fact that they continue doing so (at least for now) because they see it as a good deal. Programmers are responsible for continuing to have skills that are marketable if the economy changes.

>> "right up until it's eliminated"

This phrase implies an Evil Power is deciding who gets to live or something. In reality, a job is "the opportunity to meet a demand by selling labor." It's not unjust to stop demanding something.

When people stopped wanting top hats, that wasn't unjust, even though it meant hat-makers needed new jobs. If people stop wanting software, it won't be unjust, even though it will mean programmers need new jobs.

I'd love for my house to produce its own electricity so that I could fire the power company, but until that seems easy and cost-effective enough, I pay for power because I think the money I spend gives me outsize benefits. Same with my employer paying me.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#55

Post by FLUX-YOU »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #16
guylhem wrote: post #6

It's funny how the "equality" thing can depend on various notions - including assumptions. Unless we are talking about unconditional equality (i.e. same for everyone including slackers), what about an equality based on how productive people are? It's called marginal productivity ethics, and following that theory our current society is very unequal, and the society envisioned by the articled (the so called "hyper meri…

I think it's partly that technology can multiply the differences in marginal productivity between people. For example it's a common meme on HN to talk about "10X" or "100X" programmers. If such things are true then it probably makes sense for 100X programmers to be paid 100X more. The difference between a 1X and 10X programmer however may only be marginal in terms of actual intelligence etc. Therefor if we assume a 1…

I think part of the 1X-10X-100X thing comes from knowledge acquired. It's really difficult to nail down what the industry values more: depth or breadth of knowledge, but I'm pretty sure there are jobs for both.

To me, a 10x has always been someone who's studied a ton of material and has solved a lot of problems. It'd be a bit strange if you couldn't be 10 times as productive as a junior guy if you had depth and breadth knowledge of, say, an entire web stack.

If technology gets to the point where it's a very large multiplier, then the human involved would basically be a constant in the face of a large value and multiplier -- almost irrelevant. That might mean that hiring can disregard any requirements (which would be nice for some of us!), but I think that's going to be a far cry since the industry seems to be going in the opposite direction (more languages/projects/knowledge required for an entry level position than 10 years prior)

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#56

Post by kenster07 »

I was going to post my take on this matter...but something struck me when reading the replies. The quality and thoughtfulness of the discussion here is so good compared to the utter crap that is regurgitated on TV and most newspapers. I'm happy that discussions of this level can be found on the internet, and that computer systems enable them.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#57

Post by Karunamon »

nathan_long wrote: post #22
dctoedt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as the poorest people are doing better, it's irrelevant that Bill Gates is a Billionaire. But the human psyche doesn't seem to work that way. There's a fair amount of research suggesting that we tend to measure our well-being not in absolute terms, but relative to those around us or who are otherwise on our mental radar. [ADDED:] No matter how well someone is doing, if he perceives that others "around" him…

If most people are envious of Bill Gates, does it follow that they have the right to take away his money and redistribute it?

If you accept that small groups of people and individuals can control ridiculously disproportionate amounts of value in an economy, you also must accept that small groups of people and individuals can control disproportionate amounts of resources to the detriment of everyone else.

(See, for example, "too big to fail" banks.)

Society has a vested interest in preventing this from happening.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#58

Post by humanrebar »

alex-g wrote: post #24

I don't care about inequality (of outcome). I care about suffering. Automation may increase inequality between those who are able to take advantage of it, and those who aren't - but it is better to say that increased automation exposes an existing problem. Namely, it so happened that many people were recently able to make a reasonably comfortable living in less-skilled work. There was always a population who couldn't…

> we also need to structure our society to reduce suffering and improve the general quality of life

More concretely, people who are really passionate about inequality could invest in nonprofits to help exactly the people who need it through things like targeted scholarship funds, charter schools, food banks, foster care charities, mentorship programs, addiction recovery organizations, and the like.

I believe that we've already been restructuring society to ill effect. Let's start with restructuring our Thursdays. I'm sure our crossfit friends or trivia night at the pub will manage without us.

In other words, I would like us to "restructure society" not through programs, laws, and schemes but by personalizing the problem by taking care of our actual neighbors who have actual needs.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#59

Post by countrybama24 »

nagrom wrote: post #46
jiggy2011 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's partly that technology can multiply the differences in marginal productivity between people. For example it's a common meme on HN to talk about "10X" or "100X" programmers. If such things are true then it probably makes sense for 100X programmers to be paid 100X more. The difference between a 1X and 10X programmer however may only be marginal in terms of actual intelligence etc. Therefor if we assume a 1…

There's also the fact that if a 1x programmer gets forced out the market, the 10x programmers become 1x programmers (by the definition of a 1x programmer) and the 100x programmers become 10x programmers...

Bingo. Everyone is replaceable over a long enough timeframe.

Re: Are Computers Making Society More Unequal?

#60

Post by normloman »

alex-g wrote: post #24

I don't care about inequality (of outcome). I care about suffering. Automation may increase inequality between those who are able to take advantage of it, and those who aren't - but it is better to say that increased automation exposes an existing problem. Namely, it so happened that many people were recently able to make a reasonably comfortable living in less-skilled work. There was always a population who couldn't…

A world with high inequality but low suffering would still be undesirable, as wealthy people would set the rules. They have the money to spend on lobbying and advertising. The poor would be fed, but still be powerless.
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