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Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

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Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#101

Post by islon »

tieTYT wrote: post #60

As a programmer who's getting annoyed and tired of Java's boilerplate, I welcome this. I went from Haskell to Clojure to JavaScript. I loved Haskell the language . What I don't is third party libraries are usually directly or indirectly (through a dependency) tied to an OS. I've heard, even on irc's #haskell, that it's hard to reuse code unless you're on linux. Coming from Java, this is a deal breaker for me. Then I…

"Where Clojure is about simplicity, Scala seems to be about complexity."

I have the same opinion. I would really like to try a haskell on the jvm but I'd prefer if it'd be strict instead of lazy.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#102

Post by profquail »

cgh wrote: post #70
Mikeb85 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Plenty of apps run on the JVM (everything from enterprise apps to games to IDEs etc...). I'm no JVM evangelist (I use Haskell with the GHC), but this is just a false statement.

"Enterprise apps" generally means "enterprise web apps", not standalone, deployed applications. I've never seen a AAA game written in Java. The non-deterministic GC is a dealbreaker as is the speed and space constraints of eg consoles. The OP is generally correct: the JVM is a niche technology in a way. The Java ecosystem basically specialises in web apps and backend ESB-type stuff (shuttling data very quickly betwee…

Java doesn't need to have a non-deterministic GC. The Real-Time Specification for Java [1] has resulted in a number of JVM implementations designed for low-power, embedded devices; these implementations use a deterministic GC to provide hard real-time guarantees, and the devices they run on are less powerful than the game consoles from even a couple of generations back.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_time_Java

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#103

Post by voxfrege »

nandemo wrote: post #100
bitdiddle wrote: post #2

Cute name. I wonder to what extent the language has anything to do with Frege's work in logic. I mean Haskell's last name was Curry, and currying is a big deal in FP. Thankfully that wasn't named after Moses Schoenfinkel.

Let me introduce you to the legendary Tokyo Schönfinkel Appreciation Club: http://www.cynic.net/tsac.html

I hate to say it, but when Schönfinkel Curried, he in fact Freged, as even currying was anticipated by Frege.

See here, for example: http://books.google.de/books?id=OeAPiy-6L74C&pg=PA134&lpg=PA...

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#104

Post by gngeal »

Peaker wrote: post #86
gngeal wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A language that doesn't need a runtime, like C?" The language perhaps doesn't, but most actual programs do. I'm definitely not going to write my own standard library just because I can.

A "Runtime" and a "standard library" are different things. There are a lot of (annoying to install) libraries for C.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows_library_files...

Now what could the "RT" part possibly mean?

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#105

Post by Touche »

MichaelGG wrote: post #88
Touche wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't. In fact, F# feels like it started off as a fairly pure functional language but some Microsoft PM said "it has to support every API in .NET" and so a lot of OOP stuff was bolted on the side. It feels like 2 different worlds in one language. You can easily get by never using the impure stuff but it's still there, taking up space.

F#'s design was almost completely handled by Don Syme, in MS Research Cambridge. It is highly unlikely some PM jumped in and insisted it must do things. The OOP part is rather coherent; I'm not sure what's bolted on - any examples? In fact, things like object expressions do parts of OOP even better than Java/C#. Overall the syntax for OOP is rather concise and neat. Having proper interop with .NET and hence the OOP i…

> The OOP part is rather coherent; I'm not sure what's bolted on - any examples? In fact, things like object expressions do parts of OOP even better than Java/C#. Overall the syntax for OOP is rather concise and neat.

I'm saying I'm not sure why the OOP exists at all. Someone else pointed at that OCaml has those elements as well, and maybe that's the reason. Just in my own use, I never felt the inclination to use the OOP at all, and their existence felt like this part of the language that I didn't understand, didn't want to understand, but was there nonetheless.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#106

Post by tieTYT »

chongli wrote: post #91
tieTYT wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried to get it to work, but it's really hard. Imagine you barely know the language and you barely understand how binary libraries work in linux and you're getting these errors that you've never seen before. You ask for help but it seems like you're the 2nd person on the planet who's ever experienced this issue. You read the post of the 1st guy, but for some reason his solution doesn't work for you and you don't un…

Most people in #haskell told me to switch to linux which seems like a ridiculous solution. Yeah, that's really unfortunate. This problem will continue to persist as long as people keep switching to linux to avoid it or abandoning the language altogether. How long ago was your attempt and how did you install Haskell itself on your system?

It was a little over 6 months ago. I installed it from this: http://www.haskell.org/platform/

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#107

Post by tieTYT »

lmm wrote: post #93
tieTYT wrote: post #60

As a programmer who's getting annoyed and tired of Java's boilerplate, I welcome this. I went from Haskell to Clojure to JavaScript. I loved Haskell the language . What I don't is third party libraries are usually directly or indirectly (through a dependency) tied to an OS. I've heard, even on irc's #haskell, that it's hard to reuse code unless you're on linux. Coming from Java, this is a deal breaker for me. Then I…

Scala is the most enjoyable language I've ever programmed in. Most of the complexity is superficial or shaped to the problem; there are a lot of features and they can be combined to make complex things, but each of them makes sense, and there's very little in the way of fiddly edge cases to memorize.

What other languages have you programmed in?

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#108

Post by lmm »

tieTYT wrote: post #107
lmm wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scala is the most enjoyable language I've ever programmed in. Most of the complexity is superficial or shaped to the problem; there are a lot of features and they can be combined to make complex things, but each of them makes sense, and there's very little in the way of fiddly edge cases to memorize.

What other languages have you programmed in?

More than I could remember all of, but certainly Python, Java, C, TCL, Javascript, C++, ML, Perl, 6502 assembler. I've stuck my head around the door of Haskell, so to speak, but not written anything substantial in it; I haven't tried Clojure (I've never heard a reason to use it over Scala, and I've become very attached to powerful type systems).

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#109

Post by icefox »

lmm wrote: post #99
chc wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC Harmony was scuttled primarily because of OpenJDK — Harmony's major corporate sponsor switched its support to OpenJDK, and shortly thereafter the Harmony committee unanimously agreed to put the project in the attic. I don't think Oracle ever actually went after Apache.

Nope. Oracle denied Harmony a TCK license, meaning they had no license to Java patents (and trademarks). IBM switched to OpenJDK because of this.

Bingo :)

> A language that has a choice of runtimes from a choice of vendors like Java?

At least historically it wasn't much of a choice and I wouldn't put it past Oracle to continue in this fashion.

Re: Frege: A JVM pure functional programming language in the spirit of Haskell

#110

Post by chongli »

tieTYT wrote: post #106
chongli wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people in #haskell told me to switch to linux which seems like a ridiculous solution. Yeah, that's really unfortunate. This problem will continue to persist as long as people keep switching to linux to avoid it or abandoning the language altogether. How long ago was your attempt and how did you install Haskell itself on your system?

It was a little over 6 months ago. I installed it from this: http://www.haskell.org/platform/

Ahh. Have you ever used MSYS+MinGW? It's pretty much a necessity for developing POSIX-based tools on Windows.
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