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Wikipedia Zero

wikimediafoundation.org

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Re: Wikipedia Zero

#41
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is now and always has been a giant turf war, roamed by amalgamations of insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedants and paid PR shills. There was a time something could've been done about it, but Wikipedia chose not to. I stopped editing in 2005.

What is a concrete example? Many of the Wikipedia controversies I've read about have been related to political figures and events.

One example that comes to my mind is when author Philip Roth attempted to clarify the inspiration for his book The Human Stain. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2012/09/an-open-...

The wikipedia entry for The Human Stain now contains a reference to the controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Human_Stain#Anatole_Broyard...

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#42
post #14

I want to love this idea. I want to love wikipedia. But before I can do that, I need to be able to use wikipedia. And by use, I don't mean consume - I mean, be a full participant in a collective online encyclopedia. This is currently not possible. Rather than explain or give examples, let me challenge you to start any new article, or make any decent sized edit to any article, and let's assume for the discussion that…

Wikipedia is now and always has been a giant turf war, roamed by amalgamations of insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedants and paid PR shills. There was a time something could've been done about it, but Wikipedia chose not to. I stopped editing in 2005.

> roamed by amalgamations of insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedants and paid PR shills

Everyone on the internet is an insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedant according to at least one other person. Do you think you're the exception?

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#43
post #14

I want to love this idea. I want to love wikipedia. But before I can do that, I need to be able to use wikipedia. And by use, I don't mean consume - I mean, be a full participant in a collective online encyclopedia. This is currently not possible. Rather than explain or give examples, let me challenge you to start any new article, or make any decent sized edit to any article, and let's assume for the discussion that…

Here is an article I created and authored with no undue interference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_Island_(Namibia)

Sure, the topic is obscure and even sort of shitty, but you need to dig deep these days if you want to start a brand new page, simply because most topics are already covered.

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#44
post #14

I want to love this idea. I want to love wikipedia. But before I can do that, I need to be able to use wikipedia. And by use, I don't mean consume - I mean, be a full participant in a collective online encyclopedia. This is currently not possible. Rather than explain or give examples, let me challenge you to start any new article, or make any decent sized edit to any article, and let's assume for the discussion that…

So you won't love the idea of access to knowledge for millions of people unless you can be able to contribute to that knowledge? (assuming it's as hard as you say). Either you didn't not phrase it correctly or this is a remarkably insensitive thing to say.

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#45
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is now and always has been a giant turf war, roamed by amalgamations of insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedants and paid PR shills. There was a time something could've been done about it, but Wikipedia chose not to. I stopped editing in 2005.

What is a concrete example? Many of the Wikipedia controversies I've read about have been related to political figures and events.

There are many examples. Attempts to make technical pages more accessible to a general audience have been shut down repeatedly and resulted in a separate Wikipedia entirely called "Simple English".

Attempts to neutralize any page that anyone pays attention to results in the page's regular babysitters coming out and destroying it -- a normal person can't compete because these people are obsessive about the pages they watch, often because their full-time job is to ensure that clients' Wikipedia pages read in the manner desired. Sometimes other motives, like zealotry, contribute to the obsession.

These persons become steeped in WP-specific jargon, utilizing an ever-growing body of subjective and sometimes almost conflicting rules to crush any opponent who doesn't come ready for the fight. They'll say that your edit doesn't comply with WP:XYZ and WP:ABC, you'll say it does, etc. And even if you do come prepared, unless you're willing to commit more resources than your opponent, they'll just quietly change it back with a non-suspicious commit message after a few days, once you've decided you had other things that deserved attention. Worse, often these persons become administrators and will ban you for "incivility" or protect the article so that their preferred version remains in place. You can begin an appeals process, but again, it's something that's going to be difficult to reasonably affect without a major time commitment and even after you win, it's typically something that can be easily undone once the attention of the relevant appeals committee is diverted.

It's impossible for a normal person to compete with that type of editor, and they are very widespread. I don't necessarily want to give specific examples because I was involved in all of the ones that are significant to me, but it is not hard to find this occurring. You may want to reference the historical archives for The Wikitruth, as they had extensive case studies on this type of failure.

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#46
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a concrete example? Many of the Wikipedia controversies I've read about have been related to political figures and events.

There are many examples. Attempts to make technical pages more accessible to a general audience have been shut down repeatedly and resulted in a separate Wikipedia entirely called "Simple English". Attempts to neutralize any page that anyone pays attention to results in the page's regular babysitters coming out and destroying it -- a normal person can't compete because these people are obsessive about the pages they…

Without either agreeing or disagreeing with your comment, I'd like to point out your case would be stronger if you actually provided a concrete example like the GP asked.

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is now and always has been a giant turf war, roamed by amalgamations of insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedants and paid PR shills. There was a time something could've been done about it, but Wikipedia chose not to. I stopped editing in 2005.

> roamed by amalgamations of insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedants and paid PR shills Everyone on the internet is an insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedant according to at least one other person. Do you think you're the exception?

I don't agree that everyone thinks that about everyone else. I agree that certainly there are people that will disagree with one another, but that doesn't mean accusations of insufferability, pedantry, or bias even make sense in context, let alone accurately describe the circumstance.

I chose my words intentionally with regard to the experience of editing Wikipedia. I contribute to many online fora, and am unpopular on many of those, but WP is a unique experience.

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many examples. Attempts to make technical pages more accessible to a general audience have been shut down repeatedly and resulted in a separate Wikipedia entirely called "Simple English". Attempts to neutralize any page that anyone pays attention to results in the page's regular babysitters coming out and destroying it -- a normal person can't compete because these people are obsessive about the pages they…

Without either agreeing or disagreeing with your comment, I'd like to point out your case would be stronger if you actually provided a concrete example like the GP asked.

I referenced places where the GP can find concrete examples, other posters have given links, and I've explained that I don't want to wake sleeping dogs and get into specific controversies that I was involved with, which are the primary source of my observations. I believe that is sufficient.

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#49
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> roamed by amalgamations of insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedants and paid PR shills Everyone on the internet is an insufferable, biased, and often incorrect pedant according to at least one other person. Do you think you're the exception?

I don't agree that everyone thinks that about everyone else. I agree that certainly there are people that will disagree with one another, but that doesn't mean accusations of insufferability, pedantry, or bias even make sense in context, let alone accurately describe the circumstance. I chose my words intentionally with regard to the experience of editing Wikipedia. I contribute to many online fora, and am unpopular…

Just an observation: in my experience, everyone with an axe to grind against Wikipedia says basically "I thought the article was incorrect (wrong, biased, not neutral) and they wouldn't let me fix it." You can imagine how the problem looks from Wikipedia's point of view.

Re: Wikipedia Zero

#50
post #14

I want to love this idea. I want to love wikipedia. But before I can do that, I need to be able to use wikipedia. And by use, I don't mean consume - I mean, be a full participant in a collective online encyclopedia. This is currently not possible. Rather than explain or give examples, let me challenge you to start any new article, or make any decent sized edit to any article, and let's assume for the discussion that…

Ok, some people came back and did let us know that you're wrong. Now would please remove this post about wounded egoes of some Wikipedia editors from the top of the page and let us talk about the important issue of free access to knowledge in poor countries?
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