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Angular Announces AngularDart

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Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#171

Post by floitsch »

nailer wrote: post #154
floitsch wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current HEAD of dart: https://code.google.com/p/dart/source/browse/#svn%2Fbranches... Most of the work is done completely in the open. See some of the language discussion writeups: https://groups.google.com/a/dartlang.org/forum/#!searchin/mi... We went public two years ago when the language was still in its infancy so that developers could provide their feedback. Edit: contrary to your claim we did get feedback and a…

Thanks for the link. It appears to be a subversion repo. Is that correct? The most popular feedback from HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3092558 and Twitter was was less verbose syntax. AFAICT dart remains as chatty as the day it was announced.

The main repository is currently SVN. When Chromium switches over to Git, we will probably follow suit. At some point there was a clone on Github, but I don't know by heart if it still exists.

Syntax is almost like a religion. You can't make everyone happy. So yes: although we changed the syntax in some areas, we kept the C-like syntax.

Fwiw you can't satisfy every feedback. There are always people that want to make Dart look and behave like their favorite language (be it Java, C#, JS, CS, Python or Ruby), then there are others that just want to boycott Dart, and finally there are simply conflicting views.

While we listened to every feedback we got, we found that feedback from people that had actually tried and used Dart to be the most helpful. They weren't always the loudest, but helped to make Dart a better language.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#172

Post by Helianthus »

detst wrote: post #170
Helianthus wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You claimed that Dart is a flawed language. I was echoing OP (the one who was bemoaning snark and cynicism). Read his paragraphs. Flawed doesn't mean crippled. There are things about Dart I like. A language can't be perfect. >No, they both thrive and benefit from the other. Pay attention to negative feedback. Some substantial portion of AngularJS devs are unhappy. >Take a cursory look and you'll find some arguments…

> Some substantial portion of AngularJS devs are unhappy. Define "substantial". I've seen some complaints here that AngularDart has, and will, take away from AngularJS, which, again, is unsubstantiated. It's counter to the evidence and the likelihood that the groups working together will make both better. > I'm not arguing for Dart's existence here, I'm saying Dart has absolutely no chance of securing the browser's r…

>Dart is pre-1.0. It's being worked on.

Typescript is pre-1.0.

It's telling, to me, that the first argument of mine you take seriously you handwave over by vaguely saying it will get better and it can be fixed.

I'd place a bet that Dart is about as good as it is ever going to be.

>I'll take the upvotes as confirmation that others agree with me.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I've got upvotes, too.

>The attitude isn't conducive to civil discourse and not welcome here so I'll continue calling it out where I see it.

Whatever floats your pompous self-righteous boat.

I may be curt, strident, and critical, but you don't really have high ground when it comes to condescension. You went straight to childish insults. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6679901

When I disagree with someone I don't directly call them stupid or immature. (Well, usually.) I may speak and act as if something I believe strongly is obvious, and I may not mask my disdain for the ideas expressed. There's nothing wrong with being wrong, but I'm not going to hide the fact that I think you're wrong.

You seem to have a problem that someone a) disagrees with you, and b) says so confidently and forcefully. Again, get over it or walk away. If I'm so wrong and so boorish, you are under no contract to continue.

You can't change me and I am not your responsibility.

Fortunately I think you've finally clued in ("so there's no point in continuing here"). I've certainly spent enough time on this. Later.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#173

Post by nailer »

floitsch wrote: post #171
nailer wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. It appears to be a subversion repo. Is that correct? The most popular feedback from HN https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3092558 and Twitter was was less verbose syntax. AFAICT dart remains as chatty as the day it was announced.

The main repository is currently SVN. When Chromium switches over to Git, we will probably follow suit. At some point there was a clone on Github, but I don't know by heart if it still exists. Syntax is almost like a religion. You can't make everyone happy. So yes: although we changed the syntax in some areas, we kept the C-like syntax. Fwiw you can't satisfy every feedback. There are always people that want to make…

Nobody uses or likes Java for its syntax. They use it for safety. Languages designed since the have gotten progressively terser. That's not preference: that's good engineering: reasonable defaults, avoiding duplicate logic, avoiding surprise, and so forth. Good design is when there's nothing left to take away.

Nobody is asking you to make everyone happy. You could have made (and still have the opportunity to make) dart look like any modern web language - coffeescript, or Python, or ruby, and you'd have both users and a measurable impact on web development.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#174

Post by detst »

Helianthus wrote: post #172
detst wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some substantial portion of AngularJS devs are unhappy. Define "substantial". I've seen some complaints here that AngularDart has, and will, take away from AngularJS, which, again, is unsubstantiated. It's counter to the evidence and the likelihood that the groups working together will make both better. > I'm not arguing for Dart's existence here, I'm saying Dart has absolutely no chance of securing the browser's r…

>Dart is pre-1.0. It's being worked on. Typescript is pre-1.0. It's telling, to me, that the first argument of mine you take seriously you handwave over by vaguely saying it will get better and it can be fixed. I'd place a bet that Dart is about as good as it is ever going to be. >I'll take the upvotes as confirmation that others agree with me. Sorry to disappoint you, but I've got upvotes, too. >The attitude isn't c…

> Whatever floats your pompous self-righteous boat.

> I may be curt, strident, and critical, but you don't really have high ground when it comes to condescension. You went straight to childish insults. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6679901

Not me. Try again.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#175

Post by Helianthus »

detst wrote: post #174
Helianthus wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Dart is pre-1.0. It's being worked on. Typescript is pre-1.0. It's telling, to me, that the first argument of mine you take seriously you handwave over by vaguely saying it will get better and it can be fixed. I'd place a bet that Dart is about as good as it is ever going to be. >I'll take the upvotes as confirmation that others agree with me. Sorry to disappoint you, but I've got upvotes, too. >The attitude isn't c…

> Whatever floats your pompous self-righteous boat. > I may be curt, strident, and critical, but you don't really have high ground when it comes to condescension. You went straight to childish insults. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6679901 Not me. Try again.

Hahaha oh hell, I really fucked that one up. My apologies.

Edit: Mind you, you're still self-righteous and pompous, but you're not hypocritical about it. :P

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#176

Post by spankalee »

nailer wrote: post #173
floitsch wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main repository is currently SVN. When Chromium switches over to Git, we will probably follow suit. At some point there was a clone on Github, but I don't know by heart if it still exists. Syntax is almost like a religion. You can't make everyone happy. So yes: although we changed the syntax in some areas, we kept the C-like syntax. Fwiw you can't satisfy every feedback. There are always people that want to make…

Nobody uses or likes Java for its syntax. They use it for safety. Languages designed since the have gotten progressively terser. That's not preference: that's good engineering: reasonable defaults, avoiding duplicate logic, avoiding surprise, and so forth. Good design is when there's nothing left to take away. Nobody is asking you to make everyone happy. You could have made (and still have the opportunity to make) da…

Have you written or read much Dart?

It's pretty damn concise and a far sight from Java. It's more concise in many cases than JavaScript (and only more verbose around things like type coercion where being explicit is a much safer choice). I admit though, that Dart is more verbose than Perl :)

C-style syntax doesn't have to mean verbose when you have features like short lambdas, optional types, string interpolation, operator overriding, getters and setters, setting instance vars directly from constructor parameters, fewer keywords, mixins, etc. C-style syntax also makes the language pretty much instantly readable, and if you're targeting web developers, being familiar to JavaScript, Java, C#, and ActionScript, is really important.

Honestly, Dart is the most readable language I've used, and that includes many years writing Python.

Re: Angular Announces AngularDart

#177

Post by sethladd »

nailer wrote: post #173
floitsch wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main repository is currently SVN. When Chromium switches over to Git, we will probably follow suit. At some point there was a clone on Github, but I don't know by heart if it still exists. Syntax is almost like a religion. You can't make everyone happy. So yes: although we changed the syntax in some areas, we kept the C-like syntax. Fwiw you can't satisfy every feedback. There are always people that want to make…

Nobody uses or likes Java for its syntax. They use it for safety. Languages designed since the have gotten progressively terser. That's not preference: that's good engineering: reasonable defaults, avoiding duplicate logic, avoiding surprise, and so forth. Good design is when there's nothing left to take away. Nobody is asking you to make everyone happy. You could have made (and still have the opportunity to make) da…

I wrote up why I think Dart is not the language you think it is here: http://programming.oreilly.com/2013/05/dart-is-not-the-langu...

[disclaimer: I work on the Dart team]

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