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What Long Hours Really Mean

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Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#161

Post by keithpeter »

SubuSS wrote: post #159

Most of these articles that deride long work hours don't account for the following: 1. When you are the smartest in the room, you can get away with 40 hours because what you produce in 40 hours will be orders of magnitude ahead of what a normal guy produces in 80 hours. Trouble comes when you start being part of super smart teams (mine has about 9 engineers sharing around 150 years of systems/db building expertise am…

" It is VERY hard to hire good senior engineers. My company (Amazon) pays a ton of money, has offices in great cities but still we find hiring hard."

Why?

Can you positively exclude the influence of the known long-hour culture?

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#162

Post by SubuSS »

keithpeter wrote: post #161
SubuSS wrote: post #159

Most of these articles that deride long work hours don't account for the following: 1. When you are the smartest in the room, you can get away with 40 hours because what you produce in 40 hours will be orders of magnitude ahead of what a normal guy produces in 80 hours. Trouble comes when you start being part of super smart teams (mine has about 9 engineers sharing around 150 years of systems/db building expertise am…

" It is VERY hard to hire good senior engineers. My company (Amazon) pays a ton of money, has offices in great cities but still we find hiring hard." Why? Can you positively exclude the influence of the known long-hour culture?

>Why?

1. Because we are in a super competitive market. The talent pool at the top end is VERY contested and for every offer from one of FB/GOOG/AMZN/TWTR/MS there is a competing bigger offer elsewhere.

2. The top end doesn't usually move for things like money/perks. They feel ownership to the thing they are building meaning they move only when they are super pissed or are at a logical endpoint. They might also have familial ties to their locale by now.

3. Also even if you move as a super senior engineer, you will have to go through the age old cycle of convincing EVERYONE in the new company that you are worth your salt etc. else you won't garner much respect. This is way harder in these smarter teams.

That's off the top of my head.

>Can you positively exclude the influence of the known long-hour culture?

I think so. Most of the high-achievers seem to not care about this. These are people who ride on the high of solving complex issues and they need the repeated hits.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#163

Post by polskibus »

SubuSS wrote: post #162
keithpeter wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It is VERY hard to hire good senior engineers. My company (Amazon) pays a ton of money, has offices in great cities but still we find hiring hard." Why? Can you positively exclude the influence of the known long-hour culture?

>Why? 1. Because we are in a super competitive market. The talent pool at the top end is VERY contested and for every offer from one of FB/GOOG/AMZN/TWTR/MS there is a competing bigger offer elsewhere. 2. The top end doesn't usually move for things like money/perks. They feel ownership to the thing they are building meaning they move only when they are super pissed or are at a logical endpoint. They might also have f…

Feel ownership ? Do you mean that you receive shares immediately when you join?

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#164

Post by SubuSS »

polskibus wrote: post #163
SubuSS wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why? 1. Because we are in a super competitive market. The talent pool at the top end is VERY contested and for every offer from one of FB/GOOG/AMZN/TWTR/MS there is a competing bigger offer elsewhere. 2. The top end doesn't usually move for things like money/perks. They feel ownership to the thing they are building meaning they move only when they are super pissed or are at a logical endpoint. They might also have f…

Feel ownership ? Do you mean that you receive shares immediately when you join?

:)

I meant ownership in terms of features / products. The money becomes a non-issue after a point.

To answer your specific question: Yes. You do receive shares / sign-on bonuses and these amount to be very big. But they usually have a vesting period though.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#165

Post by philwelch »

quinnchr wrote: post #157
nileshtrivedi wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed his sarcasm. He feels that objective truth exists. :) BTW, I have found Yudkowsky's "The Simple Truth" an effective argument against those claim that objective truth doesn't exist. If you walk in the way of a speeding train, you will die irrespective of your beliefs. Beliefs don't alter the reality. http://yudkowsky.net/rational/the-simple-truth/

Hmmm... yes let's disregard the last century of philosophical thought and the postmodernism movement as a whole because the dude who write's Harry Potter fan fic wrote a cute story. How would you convince a Solipsist that there is an objective truth?

Considering that everyone is a solipsist these days, that's an interesting problem but it's not a philosophical problem. If someone else is a solipsist I know from experience that they're wrong, and I'm not a solipsist.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#166

Post by richieb »

Next time you are on an airliner think what kind of "work ethic" you'd like your pilot to have. One who puts in 80 hours a week, or a "lazy" one who only works 30 hours per week.

(Note that FAA actually limits how many hours a week an airline pilot can fly. I think the number is close to 30).

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#167

Post by Retric »

SubuSS wrote: post #162
keithpeter wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" It is VERY hard to hire good senior engineers. My company (Amazon) pays a ton of money, has offices in great cities but still we find hiring hard." Why? Can you positively exclude the influence of the known long-hour culture?

>Why? 1. Because we are in a super competitive market. The talent pool at the top end is VERY contested and for every offer from one of FB/GOOG/AMZN/TWTR/MS there is a competing bigger offer elsewhere. 2. The top end doesn't usually move for things like money/perks. They feel ownership to the thing they are building meaning they move only when they are super pissed or are at a logical endpoint. They might also have f…

Google for example would still be profitable it paid everyone including secritary's 500,000$ a year. So no companies stick with a market rate well below what a top engineer's output is actually worth.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#168

Post by rgraham »

rwallace wrote: post #117
mattlutze wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. "[...]deserves an average of 8 hours of work[...]" "[...]2 days a week free[...]" I think that's the snake oil you're smelling. How does society ensure this can happen? With laws, of course! Why, we can just make overtime and >5 in every 7 days with worked hours illegal, it's so simple...

It worked fine in France, ended up raising the overall productivity of their economy. France now has a higher standard of living than the US, so it might be worth looking at what they're doing right.

By what measure?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...

Also, a single number will be misleading. France has fewer immigrants and thus a different cultural structure. It also has very different neighbors and trade partners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_foreign-bo...

"I think you need a lot of context to seriously examine anything." -- The Wire, Season 5

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#169

Post by Roboprog »

keithpeter wrote: post #161
SubuSS wrote: post #159

Most of these articles that deride long work hours don't account for the following: 1. When you are the smartest in the room, you can get away with 40 hours because what you produce in 40 hours will be orders of magnitude ahead of what a normal guy produces in 80 hours. Trouble comes when you start being part of super smart teams (mine has about 9 engineers sharing around 150 years of systems/db building expertise am…

" It is VERY hard to hire good senior engineers. My company (Amazon) pays a ton of money, has offices in great cities but still we find hiring hard." Why? Can you positively exclude the influence of the known long-hour culture?

I have only a very small data set: myself.

Amazon tried to recruit me (I have almost 30 years experience, much of it as team lead). However, when I found out about the corporate "death march" culture, I decided not to pursue it. My annual salary would go up, but my hourly compensation would go down.

It might not matter to your wife and kids, but it matters to mine.

Otherwise, the work there did in fact sound pretty interesting, but the opportunity cost was too high.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#170

Post by Iftheshoefits »

throwaway092834 wrote: post #154
Iftheshoefits wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working any number unpaid hours is working for free, no matter how you spin it.* 1) Business owners aren't laborers. They work, and they may draw a salary for tax purposes, but they cannot be placed in the same bin as "employee," which is what "laborer" means in this context. As a matter of opinion on your aside, I'd argue that the "level of ownership" required would be one sufficient to imbue the equity holder with…

In regards to #1 I understand your point. I am suggesting that a large portion of software developers in startups do have significant responsibility, authority and share of profits. Even at a large company: Consider a scenario of a Principal/Architect earning $150k salary and $150k in equity grants and working on a flagship product. Even at an extremely large company it appears to me, based on my own experience, that…

If the "Principal/Architect's" equity grant affords him a definitive say in the direction of the company, then he's an owner, not a worker. If it doesn't, then the grant is indistinguishable from an ESPP with a larger discount, in terms of raw compensation, and any hours he works over 40 is unpaid (i.e. 'free' work).

With respect to #2: A raise is not, in fact, compensation. It's a promise of future compensation based on future work. Calling it anything else is, frankly, less than honest.

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