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The Cheapest Generation

theatlantic.com

131–140 of 151 posts

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#131
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Back of the envelope calculations put the cost of car ownership around $7,000 per year." You could buy a ten-year-old used car every year, plus insurance, for $2,000 or less [1] (assuming insurance is mostly the same as in the US). When it breaks down, buy a new one and sell the old one for parts or junk. Owning a car provides courses of action you wouldn't consider without it. There's an extra level of planning inv…

Ok, but what's the total annual cost then? I don't commute, so I guess it would depend on how much I drove – what's a ballpark gas estimate? Don't forget to add the cost of my time for buying + selling – how long would it take to make a good purchase/sale? (serious questions, I don't know the answers because I have had no interest in a car). My parents own a car, so I know what its like to live in a place with one. D…

It depends strongly on the gas mileage for the car, of course, but my first assumption would be that for most people the cost of public transit is about the same as gas. My daily commute, for example (which I know you don't have, but most people do) is about 50 miles. On days I don't work from home, my choice is between a commuter train which costs $22 round trip, commuting on the long-distance train ($28 round trip), or driving, which costs about $10-15 in gas, depending on the current price of gas. I mostly take the train, because driving into Washington, DC isn't fun; I'm certainly not trying to convince you to run out and buy a car, just responding to the assertion that it would cost $7000 a year extra to keep one.

I lived in the DC metro for two years without a car, before purchasing this one, and having lived both ways, I personally strongly prefer having a car. Without one, I had to structure my life around not having a car. Going to the computer store (Microcenter) to pick up a new video card on a whim was something that would take the bulk of the day without a car (two or three metro lines depending on route). If the store half a mile from my house didn't have something, I had to either plan a trip on a bus to another one (and what if that one didn't, either? So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out in advance online if they did), or just go without. I don't much like shopping for groceries, but I got to do it three or four times a week anyway, because I couldn't carry enough 2L bottles to last longer than a few days, etc... without a car, a lot of my life was concerned with inventory and transportation, in a way that I don't even think about with a car, since I can pop out to any kind of store and be back in 20 minutes.

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#132
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this rebuttal adds some perspective, asks some additional questions and certainly doesn't cast blame. I think it makes a clear point in the end. That point, your feelings/thoughts are not new or special and is more hyperbole than thoughtful comment. It's a tough world out there snowflake. If you see victimization in not wanting to own a car or house, then you have some big surprises coming.

>It's a tough world out there snowflake. Well, no, it's not. Sorry, but we're not hunter-gatherers anymore. The last time I had to kill a lion with my own hands and weapons to prevent it eating one of my family's flock of sheep like my Biblical-age ancestors was... well, never . In terms of sheer material productivity and ease, we are all snowflakes now . The problem is that our culture somehow refuses to acknowledge…

Sheltered, entitled and delayed adulthood. You give every indication of all three in these short comments. I suggest you put down the sociology book, forget your dreams of having the next (insert app clone) and get job at the nearest Wal-Mart. Life happens differently and faster when your opportunities are limited.

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#133
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm going to disagree here. My generation worked our asses off getting Obama elected, and was really the driving force behind his election (to my shame). Yet, as soon as he's in office, all his promises to us, all his soothing words, all his assurances of change, were out the window. Other than some lame alternative to single-payer health insurance, and (only after major prodding) some gay rights advances, he'…

> He sure had me and a lot of my very smart friends fooled. When I first heard that Obama's campaign slogan was "hope and change", I assumed it was a joke. I'm still vaguely ashamed that that happened in a modern country. I would never, ever vote for someone whose campaign message is "you're too stupid for my platform to have any planks in it". (Full disclosure: as a resident of california, that stance on voting didn…

Not quite sure what you're saying, but if you're claiming that Obama ran without a specific platform, you're wrong. For example, below is an excerpt from his platform on civil liberties. These weren't vague promises (although he made a lot of those, too). They were specific promises, and he's now broken most of them.

###

Reclaiming Our Constitution and Our Liberties

As we combat terrorism, we must not sacrifice the American values we are fighting to protect. In recent years, we've seen an Administration put forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. The Democratic Party rejects this dichotomy. We will restore our constitutional traditions, and recover our nation's founding commitment to liberty under law.

We support constitutional protections and judicial oversight on any surveillance program involving Americans. We will review the current Administration's warrantless wiretapping program. We reject illegal wiretapping of American citizens, wherever they live.

We reject the use of national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. We reject the tracking of citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. We reject torture. We reject sweeping claims of "inherent" presidential power. We will revisit the Patriot Act and overturn unconstitutional executive decisions issued during the past eight years. We will not use signing statements to nullify or undermine duly enacted law. And we will ensure that law-abiding Americans of any origin, including Arab-Americans and Muslim-Americans, do not become the scapegoats of national security fears.

We believe that our Constitution, our courts, our institutions, and our traditions work.

In its operations overseas, while claiming to spread freedom throughout the world, the current Administration has tragically helped give rise to a new generation of potential adversaries who threaten to make America less secure. We will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools to hunt down and take out terrorists without undermining our Constitution, our freedom, and our privacy.

To build a freer and safer world, we will lead in ways that reflect the decency and aspirations of the American people. We will not ship away prisoners in the dead of night to be tortured in far-off countries, or detain without trial or charge prisoners who can and should be brought to justice for their crimes, or maintain a network of secret prisons to jail people beyond the reach of the law. We will respect the time-honored principle of habeas corpus, the seven century-old right of individuals to challenge the terms of their own detention that was recently reaffirmed by our Supreme Court. We will close the detention camp in Guantanamo Bay, the location of so many of the worst constitutional abuses in recent years. With these necessary changes, the attention of the world will be directed where it belongs: on what terrorists have done to us, not on how we treat suspects.

[...]

Our Constitution is not a nuisance. It is the foundation of our democracy. It makes freedom and self-governance possible, and helps to protect our security. The Democratic Party will restore our Constitution to its proper place in our government and return our Nation to our best traditions–including our commitment to government by law.

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#134
post #94
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I'm going to disagree here. My generation worked our asses off getting Obama elected, and was really the driving force behind his election (to my shame). Yet, as soon as he's in office, all his promises to us, all his soothing words, all his assurances of change, were out the window. Other than some lame alternative to single-payer health insurance, and (only after major prodding) some gay rights advances, he'…

> Sorry, I'm going to disagree here. My generation worked our asses off getting Obama elected, and was really the driving force behind his election (to my shame). Yet, as soon as he's in office, all his promises to us, all his soothing words, all his assurances of change, were out the window. Other than some lame alternative to single-payer health insurance, and (only after major prodding) some gay rights advances, h…

First, up to now, I never skipped non-Presidential elections. And for the record, and to assuage the concern of commenters elsewhere, I do still vote in local elections (and did yesterday, even).

Second, I did pay close attention to what the candidates were actually saying. See my comment below for an excerpt from Obama's formal 2008 platform on civil liberties, which he explained repeatedly throughout the campaign (and has now broken repeatedly).

My mistake was 1) trusting a politician 2) voting for a politician without a lengthy voting record. So there was no way to quantitatively verify many of his promises.

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#135
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you understand now why I didn't vote in the last election? It wasn't apathy; it was rage and contempt for the institution. Voting idealistically has gotten us less than zero as a generation.

Dude, I voted for the Socialist and Green Parties last election. The two-party system is not an excuse for throwing away what tiny democratic voice we have.

I realize you're probably purposely trying to be disrespectful, but in case it's by accident, I'll point out that prefacing your comment with "dude", when you're talking to someone you don't know, is what many men do when they're trying to belittle another man who's a verbal opponent. It's sort of like using the informal "you" to adult strangers in languages that have a polite and informal form of personal pronouns.

Second, I'm glad you feel your vote is productive. I personally feel like our system is fundamentally flawed and irreparably skewed toward the two-party system, and see little point in voting for a third-party. You can disagree with me, and I may be wrong here (in which case I'll change my position), but please, let's try to keep the conversation civil. We might even share fundamental motivations here.

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He sure had me and a lot of my very smart friends fooled. When I first heard that Obama's campaign slogan was "hope and change", I assumed it was a joke. I'm still vaguely ashamed that that happened in a modern country. I would never, ever vote for someone whose campaign message is "you're too stupid for my platform to have any planks in it". (Full disclosure: as a resident of california, that stance on voting didn…

Not quite sure what you're saying, but if you're claiming that Obama ran without a specific platform, you're wrong. For example, below is an excerpt from his platform on civil liberties. These weren't vague promises (although he made a lot of those, too). They were specific promises, and he's now broken most of them. ### Reclaiming Our Constitution and Our Liberties As we combat terrorism, we must not sacrifice the A…

I'm saying that I take the campaign slogan "hope and change" as a direct insult. It is such an egregiously pie-in-the-sky slogan that, in my mind, anyone proposing it should have instantly become a laughingstock, just as if they'd proposed the slogan "we're for good things, but against bad things".

Looking over https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._presidential_camp... , there seem to be a few standard types:

1. A statement of some sort of policy goal ("Peace and Prosperity"; "Defeat the new deal and its reckless spending")

2. The candidate's name (incredibly common)

3. An achievement ("He kept us out of war"; "Four more years of the full dinner pail")

4. An attack on the other guy ("Roosevelt for ex-president"; "Are you better off than you were four years ago?")

5. Meaningless fluff ("Building a bridge to the twenty-first century"; "A time for greatness")

Some slogans can fit into multiple categories to varying degrees; "Roosevelt for ex-president" is a substance-free attack, while "Are you better off than you were four years ago?" is making a fairly identifiable complaint.

"Hope and change", obviously, goes in category five. But it's phrased as if it were in category one. The meaningless fluff is usually along the lines of "U-S-A! U-S-A!" (or "The candidate is great!"), which is hard to find offensive. I parse "hope and change" as something like an intentional bait-and-switch, except that it's a one-phase process ("we'll tell them something meaningless, but they'll think we have a plan!") instead of a two-phase process ("we'll tell them we have a plan, and then later we'll tell them we were never going to use that plan").

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#137
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but what's the total annual cost then? I don't commute, so I guess it would depend on how much I drove – what's a ballpark gas estimate? Don't forget to add the cost of my time for buying + selling – how long would it take to make a good purchase/sale? (serious questions, I don't know the answers because I have had no interest in a car). My parents own a car, so I know what its like to live in a place with one. D…

It depends strongly on the gas mileage for the car, of course, but my first assumption would be that for most people the cost of public transit is about the same as gas. My daily commute, for example (which I know you don't have, but most people do) is about 50 miles. On days I don't work from home, my choice is between a commuter train which costs $22 round trip, commuting on the long-distance train ($28 round trip)…

I see. We may have different use cases. I wasn't exaggerating when I said everything is literally five minutes away in my neighborhood. I usually get groceries several times per week, on my walk home from somewhere. Occasionally I take a somewhat longer walk to a cheap grocery store for certain items, but no planning required. I don't drink pop or juice, so no 2L bottles.

Apple store and protein powder describe the two items I can't get within this 5 minute radius. And transit is $4.80 round trip with a pass and takes me anywhere in town quickly. Metro gets you anywhere, so no planning or routes required. Taxi downtown is $12-$15 if for some reason I'm in a rush.

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's a tough world out there snowflake. Well, no, it's not. Sorry, but we're not hunter-gatherers anymore. The last time I had to kill a lion with my own hands and weapons to prevent it eating one of my family's flock of sheep like my Biblical-age ancestors was... well, never . In terms of sheer material productivity and ease, we are all snowflakes now . The problem is that our culture somehow refuses to acknowledge…

Sheltered, entitled and delayed adulthood. You give every indication of all three in these short comments. I suggest you put down the sociology book, forget your dreams of having the next (insert app clone) and get job at the nearest Wal-Mart. Life happens differently and faster when your opportunities are limited.

Would you care to elaborate on your assessment, or do you just want to bash people who want to live in a better world?

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Our parents set our city planning up for failure. The primary reason for anti-walkability is to keep "riff-raff" out of the nice suburbs. The white flight from the cities in the 60s and 70s was a huge event in American urban planning and those whites who wound up in the suburbs don't want any of that inner-city stuff they got away from downtown from mucking up their suburb. It's horrible but it's the truth. It's one…

Why do people get divorced??

For the same reason dating couples breakup: because something changes, externally or internally, that makes staying together less desirable than splitting up. I've been married for 3+ years, and been with my spouse for almost 10. We have a child. There is, to put it lightly, momentum that keeps us together along with societal pressures (a dad married to the mom is superior to the dad divorced from the mom, all other things equal.)

I'm not posting to comment on whether this pressure is good or bad, but merely to point out it exists. We live in a culture that celebrates weddings and proposals and scandalizes divorce (look at any tabloid for copious examples), but has little to say about the tenure between.

The trend of dating long term, co-habitation, and finally "tying the knot" late in the relationship is an interestingly recent development in America. I'm curious to see how the data on US divorce evolves as this trend matures. Most of my peers (I'm late Gen X) and Millenials I know are following this pattern.

I suspect it is a direct reaction to generations raised in divorced households, but I have no proof of this.

EDIT: small clarification.

Re: The Cheapest Generation

#140
post #21

Back of the envelope calculations put the cost of car ownership around $7,000 per year. I'd have to earn an extra $10,000 before tax to cover that. That pays for a lot of "overpriced Apple products" that we millenials are constantly blamed for overspending on. And my electronics are a business expense. I can't see the use case for a car. I live in the Plateau Mont-Royal neighborhood of montreal. Everything I need is…

"Back of the envelope calculations put the cost of car ownership around $7,000 per year." You could buy a ten-year-old used car every year, plus insurance, for $2,000 or less [1] (assuming insurance is mostly the same as in the US). When it breaks down, buy a new one and sell the old one for parts or junk. Owning a car provides courses of action you wouldn't consider without it. There's an extra level of planning inv…

I pay $75/mo for Zipcar. On the rare occasion that I "need a car", I can just jump into one, adjust the seats and go. Annual cost: $900. 0 for gas or insurance. And if anything, I actually use it much less than that on average.
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