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What Long Hours Really Mean

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Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#81

Post by talkingquickly »

Ygg2 wrote: post #59
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

I'd say 3 days a week free would also be fine.

Or maybe four; http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/entry/21-hours

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#82

Post by eli_gottlieb »

ojbyrne wrote: post #16
christianmann wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to discount this, but where does commute fall into this breakdown?

Good point, because in the US at least, people will willingly sacrifice their leisure time for more money (longer commutes allowing for cheaper housing being just one example).

It's not so much that they willingly sacrifice their leisure time for cheaper housing as that the US has really terrible urban planning.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#83

Post by fractallyte »

mekarpeles wrote: post #54

During my first startup, I worked 6 or 7 day weeks, 13+ hours a day. At Hyperink, in my first year, I (on my own accord) slept in the office over 30 days. During this entire stretch, I was perhaps more productive and happier than any other time I can remember. The main reason why? The teams and the comradery. I wish this article at least had relevant studies + statistics on this subject as it is not representative of…

The CxOs of these companies make it a priority to build team spirit for precisely this reason: the sense of camaraderie will compel employees to work hard. All for the team, you know.

The military does this with its soldiers too. It's a system finely honed through centuries, and enables campaigns that truly rational players would abandon in an instant.

And, in another twisted example, viewers of the TV show 'Lost' were manipulated into caring for the characters, so that by the ridiculous end foisted on them, the entire thing had become 'about the characters'.

The life-lesson from this: be cynical.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#84

Post by brianmcconnell »

throwaway9848 wrote: post #64
Wingman4l7 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can debate until you're blue in the face the claims about poisonous workplace culture, broken management, unreasonable / unsustainable expectations, or other intangible things unmentioned in this piece (like people working extra because they're angling for a promotion, or trying to learn a new job skill that will be valuable in the future) -- but the math doesn't lie. If you are salaried and you work overtime, yo…

Yeah, and if you're in a startup and you have a significant equity position then you are not working for free, you are directly monetarily motivated. Also, people act to maximize their utility, not necessarily compensation. The act of working hard and hitting deadlines is a form of compensation in itself. Finally, lots of people work a lazy 8 hours (with lots of time spent on the phone, Facebook, personal email) and…

Ah! The equity position as fake compensation. Unfortunately for the worker beeze, said "equity" usually turns out to be worthless in a exit, except in unicorn situations (Facebook, etc). The founders, early investors and insider shareholders are all first in line, so mostly likely, you end up with shit, or maybe some options that might be worth something in a few years, if the company hasn't tanked by then.

No thanks, unless I can take your company stock and flip it the same day, I'll take cash.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#85

Post by antimagic »

joelrunyon wrote: post #48
enjo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's on your own time:) Seriously, people need to start living closer to work (and demanding that work make that possible).

That assumes that people are in a position to negotiate & don't work a commodity profession.

Actually "commodity" professions actually have it pretty good on this score. By definition, commodity profession jobs are everywhere, because there are a lot of them, that's what makes them "commodity" - there are cashier jobs within a kilometre of where most of us live, as an example. It's when you start getting specialised that it gets harder to negotiate where you work - there might only be one company doing web-development work in a 10km radius around your home. Of course specialisation allows you to negotiate up your salary, so you can offset the loss of freedom in choosing the location of your workplace with an increase in freedom of choosing the location of your house / apartment due to a higher salary.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#86

Post by berrypicker »

mekarpeles wrote: post #54

During my first startup, I worked 6 or 7 day weeks, 13+ hours a day. At Hyperink, in my first year, I (on my own accord) slept in the office over 30 days. During this entire stretch, I was perhaps more productive and happier than any other time I can remember. The main reason why? The teams and the comradery. I wish this article at least had relevant studies + statistics on this subject as it is not representative of…

>or instance, one of my teammates, Mischief, spends about 5 hours a day porting packages over to Plan9 and writing terminal emulators in go (why not).

Interesting that communities like this one define work as 'your day job'. See for you, it's okay that your teammate works the standard 8 hours on his computers, then goes home and spends another 5 doing more computer 'work'. Perhaps your distinction is that between 9 and 5, he's working for other people, not himself. What about somebody doing a startup? In that case, there should be nothing wrong with coding for 12 hours a day, since it's a personal project really.

Personally if I'm already spending half the day writing code, I will stay away from computers in the evening. There's much more to life.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#87

Post by [deleted] »

brianmcconnell wrote: post #84
throwaway9848 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and if you're in a startup and you have a significant equity position then you are not working for free, you are directly monetarily motivated. Also, people act to maximize their utility, not necessarily compensation. The act of working hard and hitting deadlines is a form of compensation in itself. Finally, lots of people work a lazy 8 hours (with lots of time spent on the phone, Facebook, personal email) and…

Ah! The equity position as fake compensation. Unfortunately for the worker beeze, said "equity" usually turns out to be worthless in a exit, except in unicorn situations (Facebook, etc). The founders, early investors and insider shareholders are all first in line, so mostly likely, you end up with shit, or maybe some options that might be worth something in a few years, if the company hasn't tanked by then. No thanks…

[deleted]

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#88

Post by mseebach »

mattlutze wrote: post #78
joelrunyon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

> Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. "[...]deserves an average of 8 hours of work[...]" "[...]2 days a week free[...]" I think that's the snake oil you're smelling. How does society ensure this can happen? With laws, of course! Why, we can just make overtime and >5 in every 7 days with worked hours illegal, it's so simple...

How about a law against ridiculously naive expectations of what can be achieved through the law? Ignoring a thorough analysis of unintended consequences when proposing a law should be punishable by the rack. It's so simple.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#89

Post by PhasmaFelis »

jmvoodoo wrote: post #23

This entire piece is written from the perspective of someone who sees their job as only a way to make money. That person might look at me and say something along the lines of "look at him, wasting his life away spending time at work." To me, though, he is the one wasting his life spending even a few hours a day to do something he would not do for free. If you don't absolutely love your job, quit. And if you absolutel…

I don't absolutely love my job. I mean, I'm pretty happy with it. It's satisfying. Not "absolutely love," though.

You know what I do absolutely love? Having a roof over my head at night. Not starving to death.

"If you don't absolutely love your job, quit" is a great sentiment if you live in a utopian fairyland where you can comfortably support yourself knitting sweaters or playing video games or whatever it is you might love to do. In the real world, it's insultingly naive. Loving your job is a luxury that is simply not available to the large majority of humans, not at any price. If you're one of the exceptions, more power to you, but it's not really relevant to the rest of us.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#90

Post by joelrunyon »

001sky wrote: post #68
joelrunyon wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source? If true - that's really interesting. I wonder what the other outcomes / configurations were.

On January 5, 1914, the Ford Motor Company took the radical step of doubling pay to $5 a day and cut shifts from nine hours to eight, moves that were not popular with rival companies, although seeing the increase in Ford's productivity, and a significant increase in profit margin (from $30 million to $60 million in two years), most soon followed suit.[10][11][12][13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#Unite…

That's really interesting - thanks.
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