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What Long Hours Really Mean

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Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#61

Post by barry-cotter »

telephonetemp wrote: post #17
PilateDeGuerre wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How could one study it objectively? Here's a fix, and it comes from within: Give up the ideal of objectivity. Objectivity doesn't exist. I see this fallacy all the time from hackers. We are not merely rational creatures we are also feeling creatures. Embrace it.

There's a good deal of middle ground between the self-evident >We are not merely rational creatures we are also feeling creatures and a thought-terminating cliche like >Objectivity doesn't exist. The latter doesn't seem like a helpful response to someone who is apparently asking for scientific evidence for long working hours and/or overtime doing harm to you. If anything, knowing what science says on the matter is em…

You pissed off those who are highly invested in either side without provoking any support from the middle; your rewording is no less offensive, especially with the pointer to the pre-edit version, and your usage of parentheses necessitates an above average working memory or rereading.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#62

Post by throwaway9848 »

pedalpete wrote: post #20
tslathrow wrote: post #14

Seeing as I grew up on 80+ hour workweeks, I can promise you this is false for a certain group of people. I spent two years in banking - normally we had 18+ hour workdays... definitely gave me stamina later on. Tier 1 bonus bucket at a bulge bracket one year, Tier 2 the other year. You pretty much always end up getting paid for hard work.

This is not correct, you don't 'pretty much always end up getting paid for hard work'. I've worked in a few startups, as well as had my own where I was working 6-7 days a week 15+hours on most week days, and it didn't result in a big pay day. I've had lots of stock in bankrupt companies and experience to show for it. However, I will say that it is possible you'll gain lots of experience, and I wouldn't give up my lon…

"Tier 1 bonus bucket at a bulge bracket one year, Tier 2 the other year."

He was at a bank, not at a startup. Since you are not familiar with bonus structures at banks, what he's talking about could roughly double a salary in a _cash_ bonus.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#63

Post by davorak »

joelrunyon wrote: post #47
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

Does this case warrant the recoil?

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#64

Post by throwaway9848 »

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #4
gruseom wrote: post #2

This is an emotional topic, the discussion of which is nearly always evidence-free. How could one study it objectively?

You can debate until you're blue in the face the claims about poisonous workplace culture, broken management, unreasonable / unsustainable expectations, or other intangible things unmentioned in this piece (like people working extra because they're angling for a promotion, or trying to learn a new job skill that will be valuable in the future) -- but the math doesn't lie. If you are salaried and you work overtime, yo…

Yeah, and if you're in a startup and you have a significant equity position then you are not working for free, you are directly monetarily motivated.

Also, people act to maximize their utility, not necessarily compensation. The act of working hard and hitting deadlines is a form of compensation in itself.

Finally, lots of people work a lazy 8 hours (with lots of time spent on the phone, Facebook, personal email) and need the extra hours to accomplish 8 hours worth of real work.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#65

Post by Morcane »

tslathrow wrote: post #42
e12e wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which kind of work did you do that wouldn't have been more effective if it was split in two (or even three) shifts (assuming it would've been possible to find qualified people to help/hire with/for the workload? How much of that time is for breaks/lunch etc? Genuinely interested in what an 18 hour work day consists of. Personally I can absolutely see "working" long hours -- but then that'd probably be something like…

Very often there was a crunch time around getting a deal done. Could be an IPO, restructuring etc That means lots of modeling and dicking around with slide decks RE lunch: I took fewer than ten lunches away from my desk over those two years. Generally dinner at the desk via Seamless

Great for you, but the world is a bit bigger than 'banking' (aka pure plain robbery).

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#66

Post by dasil003 »

joelrunyon wrote: post #47
dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

> "deserves" This word always makes me coil. Everytime I hear it - I assume someone is trying to sell me something.

In this case someone is trying to sell you the idea of work-life balance. I guess you can take it or leave it, but it doesn't seem that slimy or nefarious to me.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#67

Post by ch215 »

From my experience, I can only agree. Aged 24, I was given responsibly for a near 150-year-old weekly newspaper which is read by more than 30,000 people a week. Needless to say, I ended up working a quite ridiculous amount of unpaid overtime.

Keep asking myself why I put in all the extra hours. Journalism's about as competitive an industry as exists but I didn't have self-advancement in mind. It wasn't because it was almost expected even if unwritten. Nor was it because of procrastination.

The explanation that jumps to mind's two-fold.

First, circumstance and necessity. The industry's not so much shrinking as shrivelling. By the time I left in July, I had two full-time staff to produce a newspaper which more oft than not numbered more than 100 tabloid pages. To give those numbers some context, there were many fewer pages and many more editorial staff when the paper was founded in the 1800s. Jobs simply needed doing and I was a willing horse.

And second, pride. Not pride in long hours but pride in a job well done. I was a martyr to the readers' cause and I was going to put out the best paper in my power.

However, three years later and long burned out, it was part a wider culture which culminated in me leaving the company. I've drawn similar conclusions to the author when he says work long hours--but only on your own terms.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#68

Post by 001sky »

joelrunyon wrote: post #49
curyous wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Henry Ford tested his workforce, he discovered that reducing hours to a 5-day 40-hour workweek increased total output.

Source? If true - that's really interesting. I wonder what the other outcomes / configurations were.

On January 5, 1914, the Ford Motor Company took the radical step of doubling pay to $5 a day and cut shifts from nine hours to eight, moves that were not popular with rival companies, although seeing the increase in Ford's productivity, and a significant increase in profit margin (from $30 million to $60 million in two years), most soon followed suit.[10][11][12][13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day#United_States

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#69

Post by com2kid »

dalek_cannes wrote: post #9

Every human being deserves an average of 8 hours of work, 8 hours of family/leisure, 8 hours of sleep and 2 days a week free. Even a doctor on whom many lives are depending . Lives of critical employees are just as valuable as the lives of those who are affected if they don't work harder. The whole "if I don't do this, the project will sink / things will be destroyed" is a self-imposed ransom situation that managers…

By what natural law is this true? By what will of nature or physics are you deriving your statements?

Deserves? Why does anyone deserve anything? Nature itself does not act that way.

People around the world deserve not to live in fear of their government killing them. Women deserve not to live in fear of being raped. Children should not live in fear of abuse. Yet untold millions starve, are beaten, tortured, abused, have lives of unimaginable torment and despair, and you have the gall to talk about how the privileged few should not work so hard?

How about those of us born into a life of privilege work harder until suffering is alleviated, until pain is removed, until equality is reached.

Re: What Long Hours Really Mean

#70

Post by Wingman4l7 »

throwaway9848 wrote: post #64
Wingman4l7 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can debate until you're blue in the face the claims about poisonous workplace culture, broken management, unreasonable / unsustainable expectations, or other intangible things unmentioned in this piece (like people working extra because they're angling for a promotion, or trying to learn a new job skill that will be valuable in the future) -- but the math doesn't lie. If you are salaried and you work overtime, yo…

Yeah, and if you're in a startup and you have a significant equity position then you are not working for free, you are directly monetarily motivated. Also, people act to maximize their utility, not necessarily compensation. The act of working hard and hitting deadlines is a form of compensation in itself. Finally, lots of people work a lazy 8 hours (with lots of time spent on the phone, Facebook, personal email) and…

Your last example is kind of irrelevant, because if you're honest with yourself, you're not counting the not-work hours.
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