nice. secure end-to-end encryption with a good browser-based UI is kind of a holy grail. They say it's open source, but I can't find links to the source anywhere. Anyone?
Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
51–60 of 142 posts
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#52Another week, another Javascript cryptography project. See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6637915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6420739 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6353137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6317685 (That's just the last few weeks). We are also developing a browser extension which will verify the Javascript loaded from the server. (Until then, an attacker who gained control of…
Yeah, I read your Matasano post, "Javascript crypto considered harmful", and I agree-- Javascript crypto is hard! But it's not impossible. The reason I chose that route is because I want to make it as easy as possible for users to try out and adopt. Just testing it out? No installation required. I think that security is at least equal parts a technical problem and an adoption problem. The status quo is that nearly al…
PS: Most users are not power users, and won't download the extension and manually check signatures.
As mentioned in the writeup, there's a beautiful way you can protect even non-power-users. Because the extension downloads and verifies the webapp HTML, CSS and JS every time it runs, the web app is constantly being validated.
As long as you have a critical mass of power users who installed the extension, an adversary cannot tamper with the web application without immediately being noticed.
A strong adversary could still commandeer the server and serve tampered JS to a specific IP without being detected. Users who are specially targeted by such an adversary must either install the extension, use Tor, or both.
My goal is to make Scramble usable by a wide range of people. For a nontechnical user, it's just as easy as using Gmail--and at a minimum, they get the advantage that Scramble servers never store plaintext.
A user with stronger requirements can do more, and can get stronger security guarantees.
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#53If you just expose your service as an API then you don't have to worry about users trusting code given to them by the site. Then use a native client app that doesn't suck to interact with the service...all of the encryption is done client side with all of the messages being encrypted end to end.
JavaScript encryption just isn't really valid in browsers...the browser runtime is to blame. Its funny that people have to all learn the same lessons over and over again...it's a worthwhile goal...keep at it, just try a different approach.
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#54Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#55Now the question is -- why doesn't Google do this with Gmail?
This would only work within gmail though. Non gmail users still will have to manually decrypt any emails they receive.
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I read your Matasano post, "Javascript crypto considered harmful", and I agree-- Javascript crypto is hard! But it's not impossible. The reason I chose that route is because I want to make it as easy as possible for users to try out and adopt. Just testing it out? No installation required. I think that security is at least equal parts a technical problem and an adoption problem. The status quo is that nearly al…
PS: Most users are not power users, and won't download the extension and manually check signatures. As mentioned in the writeup, there's a beautiful way you can protect even non-power-users. Because the extension downloads and verifies the webapp HTML, CSS and JS every time it runs, the web app is constantly being validated. As long as you have a critical mass of power users who installed the extension, an adversary…
WAT. This is a PGP application that works as long as a specific user isn't targeted. PGP did better than that in 1995: keep your key safe, and if the NSA has a 50 foot poster of your head shot hanging in the lobby of Fort Meade, they still can't decrypt the message.
When you build and promote a system like this, you are assuming a responsibility on behalf of your users. You should take that responsibility more seriously.
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I read your Matasano post, "Javascript crypto considered harmful", and I agree-- Javascript crypto is hard! But it's not impossible. The reason I chose that route is because I want to make it as easy as possible for users to try out and adopt. Just testing it out? No installation required. I think that security is at least equal parts a technical problem and an adoption problem. The status quo is that nearly al…
It is impossible. The features required to make browser Javascript safe for crypto aren't even on the roadmaps of browser vendors. Your reason for using browser Javascript for crypto --- here, Recurity's JS PGP implementation --- is the same as every other JS crypto project's reason: doing everything in the browser makes it easier for users to adopt your project. You are not the first person to point this out and you…
> it's fatal to security
I'll respectfully disagree.
> But that made your life too hard! So you abandoned that idea
We haven't abandoned the Chrome extension idea at all. We just think there's a better approach than "packaging the whole application as a Chrome extension". Doesn't sound like you read my reply.
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your comment makes absolute sense if the extension is attempting to validate asset files after they'v been loaded. But the extension can be coded to only load vetted code. So I'm not sure what you're talking about. Please enlighten us.
If the entire system lives in a browser extension, you're doing what I said in the comment at the top of this thread --- and why would you bother "loading" anything from the server at all? If you know the hash, you know what the file is supposed to be. Otherwise, almost every rendezvous you have with the server is an opportunity for methods to be rebound and your cryptosystem to be subverted. If you don't see how, it…
He wouldn't know the hash beforehand, he'd know the keys that are supposed to sign assets.
It would work if the plugin can inspect all browser requests attempt and verify every single asset before it's loaded into the browser.
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
We plan to add functionality soon! As well as exporting your public/private key.
Soo... there's no way to actually send/recieve encrypted emails right now?
All email from one Scramble address to another is encrypted+signed.
We'll add compatibility with existing PGP soon!
Re: Scramble.io: secure email for everyone
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is impossible. The features required to make browser Javascript safe for crypto aren't even on the roadmaps of browser vendors. Your reason for using browser Javascript for crypto --- here, Recurity's JS PGP implementation --- is the same as every other JS crypto project's reason: doing everything in the browser makes it easier for users to adopt your project. You are not the first person to point this out and you…
> it's fatal to security I'll respectfully disagree. > But that made your life too hard! So you abandoned that idea We haven't abandoned the Chrome extension idea at all. We just think there's a better approach than "packaging the whole application as a Chrome extension". Doesn't sound like you read my reply.
You (a) don't have a Chrome extension that verifies anything right now, (b) are currently publishing the pure- browser- JS version of your application, and (c) envision a future in which a small number of "power users" can "safely" use the system while the majority of users, who you correctly note will not install your extension, will be at the mercy of attackers or, for that matter, your own server.
You're essentially asking to be the next Lavabit. You've added a verification component that probably won't work even for the verifiers. But that doesn't even matter, because the majority of your users won't even be doing that verification.