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Get Shit Done: The Worst Startup Culture

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Re: Get Shit Done: The Worst Startup Culture

#161

Post by walshemj »

pekk wrote: post #146
walshemj wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is why companys tend to give brief factual references so that some manger doesn't go off on one and land the company with a big lawsuit.

Except if they don't. It's not at all likely that whatever they say will get back to the candidate, let alone in a legally actionable form.

Well normally you get the offer only then do you give them your references - get knocked back the then you get your layer to get the papers from the section process.

Now Mr HR manager lets say 30k for a compromise agreement shall we and you fire the person that decided to accept the libelous statement for my ex employer - and when do I start :-)

Re: Get Shit Done: The Worst Startup Culture

#162

Post by jaegerpicker »

jamra wrote: post #156
7Figures2Commas wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People bitch about how hard it is to find good developers and yet hire talented developers but put them in shitty positions. Notwithstanding the fact that the GSD mentality is often nonsense that comes from folks who don't know what they're doing, I would make the point that a lot of software jobs are "shitty" in the context of what many expect to find when they decide to become a developer. And that's life. Even a…

I'm not sure if performing mundane tasks is the same thing he's talking about. When you are prevented from doing your tasks because of a lack of support by your company and a lack of communication under the guise of "Getting things done", you are given accountability without responsibility i.e. You are punished for failure but not given the tools to make yourself succeed.

Exactly. Everyone has to write migrations or make new branches in source control or a million other mundane tasks that few actually like doing. I meant a shitty position as in a job that should be a great gig but isn't because you are constantly told "GET SHIT DONE!" without being told what type of shit you should be getting done. I'm completely able to make up my own shit to work on but don't bitch if my shit doesn't match your shit that was locked in you mind.

Re: Get Shit Done: The Worst Startup Culture

#163

Post by jaegerpicker »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #71
jaegerpicker wrote: post #6

Dear God this was my life at a past employer. The biggest issue is that Get Shit Done usually turns to Get Shit Done exactly how I want even though I won't tell you what it is because I'm "Getting Shit Done!". I know better now. If I see that at an interview now, I'll run, not walk, run away. People bitch about how hard it is to find good developers and yet hire talented developers but put them in shitty positions. T…

> People bitch about how hard it is to find good developers and yet hire talented developers but put them in shitty positions. Notwithstanding the fact that the GSD mentality is often nonsense that comes from folks who don't know what they're doing, I would make the point that a lot of software jobs are "shitty" in the context of what many expect to find when they decide to become a developer. And that's life. Even a…

I completely get that but a shitty job at a cool competent company that communicates well is a world of difference away from what should be a great job at, what turns out to be a shitty company. In other words you can be treated like a valued employee or like a scapegoat. How shitty your tasks are usually have little to do with which end you land on that scale.

Re: Get Shit Done: The Worst Startup Culture

#164

Post by bmm6o »

pvdm wrote: post #119
ChikkaChiChi wrote: post #59

If you are taking your management cues from a slogan on a wall, you're probably dealing with shitty management.

From my recollection, the slogan can be attributed to Zuckerberg.

There's a difference between the company who wrote it on the wall and the company who read it from the wall. There's surely more to "The Facebook Way" than 3 words can convey.

Re: Get Shit Done: The Worst Startup Culture

#165

Post by analog31 »

The fallacy of "just" should be added to the standard lists of logical fallacies. "Just do X" assertions are problematic in a number of ways:

1. "Just" carries a hidden assumption, that the thing is simple and straightforward.

2. It's awkward to respond without tacitly accepting the burden of proof for why you can't do the thing.

Re: Get Shit Done: The Worst Startup Culture

#167

Post by freshhawk »

perlpimp wrote: post #159
freshhawk wrote: post #133

In my experience GSD is just an excuse to avoid the organization and planning work that's not particularly interesting compared to banging out some code. I've seen a lot of startups just failing utterly because their primary philosophy is this one, and it tells them that it's ok to skip the hard/boring parts of your duties. On the plus side those who are thinking through their experiments and still failing fast but i…

Last company I worked at, we were doing planning for 2 years and have yet to ship a product. There is something to be said for GSD, but only for startups in teams of under 10. Why? - because shipping a product gives you something to look forward to, live product is something you can brag about show and change the world with. It is better to ship than not to ship. If you can't do it in 2 months - cut features out, etc…

Yes, obviously over-analysis/over-engineering is also bad but I'm not sure why that provides any evidence that doing none is good.

It is definitely not impossible to fail fast and emphasize MVPs and shipping while still being highly organized. People do it all the time, and they produce way more useful features than the GSD'ers because they are organized. And by the time they've been working for a few months they are moving faster than the GSD'ers (in my experience anyway, the actual timespan probably depends on how complex the problem is).

Maybe we aren't agreeing on what exactly GSD is? Because even on tiny projects where you come up with an idea and ship an MVP a week later I've abandoned the GSD style blind flailing. I spend maybe 5% of that week thinking about it and planning a few things out, altering that plan as you build it and another maybe 10% keeping technical debt low. That thinking time saves at least a few dead ends that I would have otherwise gone down. The low tech debt makes debugging easier throughout the entire rest of the 85%.

That 15% investment has never not seemed to pay off. Not so far. And then on week two, when there's feedback and it's time to iterate you are sitting pretty, not starting from scratch and just winging it some more like you would be with the GSD strategy. I've done both, and I really can't emphasize enough how much of a payoff there is to keeping lightweight, flexible but mandatory process in place. Always.

GSD style cowboy development is something I kick myself for wasting so much time with when I was younger, and it is totally natural to fall into that style when you like writing coding and are lazy.

Sorry, that was quite the wall of text, I guess that's my 4c.

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