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Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

blog.mibbit.com

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Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#151

Post by ankhmoop »

pyre wrote: post #150
ankhmoop wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd suggest that freenode's arguments seem to be fairly hollow given ... The point is, isn't this entirely their perfectly reasonable prerogative as free actors? Given that my own minimal channel 'work-load' has increased due to Mibbit, I'm inclined to take their position at face value. However, if I were to entertain the notion of a secret plot for IRC monetization, I still wouldn't begrudge them that choice. ... fr…

> However, if I were to entertain the notion of a secret plot for IRC monetization, I still wouldn't begrudge them that choice. I think people are taking issue with them being secretive about it. "We're banning Mibbit users because they abuse our network" vs "We're banning Mibbit users because we want them to use our client instead so that we can make money" are a little different from each other. If the latter is tr…

Openness is preferable, but there is absolutely no direct evidence to support the conclusion that they wish to monetize Freenode via web chat -- the timing is only circumstantial.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#152

Post by ankhmoop »

pyre wrote: post #149
ankhmoop wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is rather misleading. Mibbit may be a browser-based client, but it does pass on the user's IP to the remote ircd, which means exactly the same protections exist as for any other irc client. First, it's considerably easier to find open web proxies than it is to find IRC-capable proxies, and Freenode runs proxy detection to catch use of IRC-capable proxies. Second, trusting Mibbit's IP address reporting is a tall…

Most of your arguments (throughout all the discussion threads) boil down to: 1. All the channels you help manage banned all Mibbit users due to abuse/problems. 2. Freenode _could possibly_ have IP addresses purposefully misreported by Mibbit to them, so they shouldn't have to trust them. 3. Freenode shouldn't be _forced_ to accept traffic/users from Mibbit. My Responses: (1) You had a problem with Mibbit users that y…

Could you enlighten us as to why Mibbit made it a PITA to ban all Mibbit users from your channel?

We had to solve the problem, as did all other channels with this issue. You reference another poster who had similar issues. How many man hours were blown by individual channel managers dealing with Mibbit issues?

I don't see any claims that Freenode knows that Mibbit is misreporting its users' IP addresses. Whether or not they have incentive to do so is irrelevant because it does not even seem to be a stated reason behind Freenode's decision. Therefore presumably Freenode either believes what Mibbit reports or they don't think that it's a minor issue. In either case, I don't see how it should be a large part of this discussion. To further argue against your point, Freenode supports Tor. Tor's stated objective is to help users be anonymous. Should Freenode also ban all users from ISPs that allow them to reset their modems to get another dynamic IP address?

1) Whether or not Mibbit misrepresents IP addresses isn't really the issue. Why should Freenode have to adopt a policy of extending trust to a third party service? What about future services that also request similar access? Why is this Freenode's problem?

Additionally, this is relevant because extending trust would simplify freenode's handling of abuse, and is so the recommended (demanded?) course of action by Mibbit proponents.

2) Freenode supports Tor, but has banned Tor in the past, may do so again in the future, and had to expend extra effort to work with the EFF to support Tor.

Since Tor is intended (in no small part) to provide a service to users in fascist states, Freenode clearly felt this was worth addressing, but even still, have had to take draconian measures due to abuse in the past.

I see lots of disagreement with Freenode's decision, and calls for reversal but I have yet to see someone claiming that Freenode should be required to never ban a certain client. Just because someone disagrees with a decision doesn't mean they believe that the person/group doesn't have a right to make a decision. Much in the same way that just because Freenode has the right to make this decision I am not required to like it.

Simply put, I find the sense of entitlement to be audacious. Mibbit is an external service, has no claim to Freenode's services, and was causing Freenode a disproportionate amount of trouble.

I wouldn't expect or demand that Freenode accommodate peering AOL/AIM, Facebook, or any other external service -- why is Mibbit any different?

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#153

Post by SohumB »

axod wrote: post #62

This is a sad thing in terms of Freenode, and users trying to access it from Mibbit, but will not affect Mibbit as such. I remember using Freenode early on when I discovered open source. It was a fantastic vibrant place with hackers all over the place. openprojects, lilo, great... Unfortunately, maybe it's got too big. The atmosphere has changed for the worse IMHO. In my opinion, the staff no longer represent the com…

This is either deliberate FUD or an accidental misconstruing of what they said.

I'm not a freenode staffer, but I was in the channel while this discussion was ongoing. What they did say was that:

1) the WEBIRC protocol, which mibbit pushes heavily, is fundamentally not trustable unless you know exactly what code is running

2) there are additional incentives for a commercial enterprise to potentially abuse any level of trust given to it

3) that this discussion was a tangent from the actual issue, which was that mibbit has not been, for over a year, open to discussion and working with freenode.

Their own client is not less capable of preventing abuse, because they can integrate it into their network better (which I take to mean things like actually presenting a guaranteed IP address and similar things), which means that they can then reliably block abusive users using the standard IRC techniques.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#154

Post by SohumB »

axod wrote: post #91
froo wrote: post #20

I know the "official" reason, but I'm curious if there's any correlation between the blocking of mibbit and axod's post about how much revenue mibbit was making here ( http://axod.blogspot.com/2009/06/revenue-browser.html ) - the timing is awfully suspicious. I mean, a day after the post they "magically" have their own web client up that they would rather you use. I had a look at the qwebirc client they implemented,…

Another fun quote: jtrucks: because mibbit users are retards and they think mibbit is the only way

You should probably point out here that nenolod was one of the non-freenode-staff members in #freenode at that point, presenting his personal opinion. It's about as germane to this discussion as me pulling up random person B's comment about how mibbit is .

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#155

Post by SohumB »

froo wrote: post #34
Tichy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the official reason?

People abusing mibbit webchat to cause strife http://blog.freenode.net/2009/06/new-freenode-webchat-and-wh... Honestly, freenode is loaded up with tech savvy users. This will solve nothing. If users want to cause strife on channels, the tool they use is inconsequential. Below are two scenario's off the top of my head. Scenario #1 - people will be using proxies and using freenode's webchat client = banning mibbit was…

Old scenario - people are using mibbit to very easily banevade - crap.

Scenario #1 + #2 - the proxy will be banned or the user refused connection. There is no distinction because they can trust the code they're running to report the IP correctly. Scenario #3 - "ah crap, you mean I have to reset my router instead of just refreshing mibbit?"

From freenode.net/policy.shtml : freenode may block access to users whose IRC clients run on hosts with open proxies, IIS servers or other categories of software determined to present special risk to our server environment.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#156

Post by SohumB »

abstractbill wrote: post #46
ankhmoop wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can: 1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse. 2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC. 3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connectio…

(1) and (2) both boil-down to saying "we don't trust the operators of Mibbit to pass on the IP address accurately". Do you have examples of the IP address being inaccurate? (3) makes no sense, assuming you do trust the IP address, so doesn't add anything more than (1) and (2). You can already perform proxy-detection if you have WEBIRC and you trust the reported IP.

It's not a question of "they don't trust Mibbit", it's just basic security practice. Anyone, even a freenode staffer running his personal project, would not have that trust extended to them.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#157

Post by SohumB »

axod wrote: post #116
sho wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I don't really know all the details behind Mibbit's implementation. Interesting that they pass on the IP. But the problem would then be that people can then use any of a number of proxies, etc, to get around that - Mibbit certainly does not have any incentive to block proxies, it's interested only in ad views. So it seems there would be a conflict of interest between Mibbit, interested in maximising users, and…

>> Mibbit certainly does not have any incentive to block proxies, it's interested only in ad views. Mibbit blocks all known web proxies, tor, etc and has done for a long time. You really do think the worst of everyone don't you. I wonder what that says about you? :/

You really do think the worst of everyone don't you. I wonder what that says about you?

That he's someone I'd hire to deal with network security.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#158

Post by blueben »

axod wrote: post #91
froo wrote: post #20

I know the "official" reason, but I'm curious if there's any correlation between the blocking of mibbit and axod's post about how much revenue mibbit was making here ( http://axod.blogspot.com/2009/06/revenue-browser.html ) - the timing is awfully suspicious. I mean, a day after the post they "magically" have their own web client up that they would rather you use. I had a look at the qwebirc client they implemented,…

Another fun quote: jtrucks: because mibbit users are retards and they think mibbit is the only way

Are you airing a legitimate complaint, or are you now simply embarking on a smear campaign to make them look bad and rally folks to your cause?

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#159

Post by SohumB »

swombat wrote: post #76
ankhmoop wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today, they put their own ideals ahead of their users. Their objections to Mibbit have been: It's not open source, It makes money Working with Mibbit clearly costs freenode time and resources that they would rather not spend. Since Mibbit makes money, perhaps you should consider entering into a contractual relationship to provide them with financial incentive and other guarantees, in exchange for their investment in…

As I understand it, axod offered financial incentives aplenty but freenode wasn't interested. Freenode's position seems to be that they will never trust any third party, no matter what that third party does. The most oft-repeated argument on #freenode was not about the hassle of dealing with bad users (everyone, including axod, agreed with the sentiment of mibbit and freenode working together to resolve those), but t…

I sat on the same channel you did, and I came away with a fundamentally different impression. The "make mibbit OS" were either jokes or a precursor to explaining why they prefer their client.

There seems to be a bit of miscommunication between mibbit and freenode here, where freenode believes that they tried extensively over at least a year to resolve this with mibbit and mibbit says they had no clue. I'd certainly be suspicious and not necessarily feel welcome to forgiving immediately if something like that happened.

And as for trust - I don't know either group. But from the patient way in which the freenode staffers explained what was happening and their rationale to everyone who entered #freenode to demand their mibbit back for (I think) the better part of twelve hours, that leaves me with far more respect for them than for axod at the moment, assuming certain things about his actions fit together like it seems.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#160

Post by SohumB »

froo wrote: post #20

I know the "official" reason, but I'm curious if there's any correlation between the blocking of mibbit and axod's post about how much revenue mibbit was making here ( http://axod.blogspot.com/2009/06/revenue-browser.html ) - the timing is awfully suspicious. I mean, a day after the post they "magically" have their own web client up that they would rather you use. I had a look at the qwebirc client they implemented,…

nenolod is not a freenode staffer. The impression I got was that freenode felt they were going above and beyond in offering an alternative webchat to mibbit users, which they didn't need nor particularly want to do.
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