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A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

theatlantic.com

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Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#11

Post by Tuna-Fish »

wuschel wrote: post #3
DanBC wrote: post #2

There's a claim that rare earth minerals cannot be reclaimed from recycled electronics. Is that true?

Depends which elements you want to recover. The main problem is the economic aspect of recovery - this is due to the fact that one has to collect the materials from a multitude of electronic devices and bring them through a chemical purification process. Rising rare element prices might change this in the future. Addendum: quick google search gave http://www.molycorp.com/ as a developer of recycling technology.

> Rising rare element prices might change this in the future.

They can't. The mining of rare elements isn't constrained by resources, only cost. Setting up the kind of infrastructure needed for REE recovery would always cost more than mining, so if the prices start going up again, mining will just be expanded.

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#12

Post by DanBC »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #11
wuschel wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends which elements you want to recover. The main problem is the economic aspect of recovery - this is due to the fact that one has to collect the materials from a multitude of electronic devices and bring them through a chemical purification process. Rising rare element prices might change this in the future. Addendum: quick google search gave http://www.molycorp.com/ as a developer of recycling technology.

> Rising rare element prices might change this in the future. They can't. The mining of rare elements isn't constrained by resources, only cost. Setting up the kind of infrastructure needed for REE recovery would always cost more than mining, so if the prices start going up again, mining will just be expanded.

I don't quite understand how it's cheaper to dig massive holes in the ground and process that dirt to extract REE than it is to grind up all the waste electronics and extract copper, tin, gold, REE from that.

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#14

Post by mkr-hn »

adventured wrote: post #8
jofer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would mining a thorium rich deposit have higher environmentally related costs? Yes, absolutely! > Isn't the thorium itself valuable as well? Not at present. It's basically a waste byproduct at the moment. If it becomes widely used as a nuclear fuel in molten salt reactors, that might change. It is used in a few alloys, etc, but there aren't a large number of industrial uses for it.

Sounds like a classic scenario in which one should massively stockpile thorium, or find a way to buy ownership in such. We seem to find valuable uses for nearly everything over time (and history is littered with examples of 'tossed to the side' materials that are later worth a fortune).

Like gasoline.

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#15

Post by mcone »

This article didn't really discuss the environmental impacts of the mines, which is probably substantial. Is that why the mines are so expensive to operate in the US? And is that why China produces so many more rare earth metals -- because they skimp on environmental protections?

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#16

Post by wuschel »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #11
wuschel wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends which elements you want to recover. The main problem is the economic aspect of recovery - this is due to the fact that one has to collect the materials from a multitude of electronic devices and bring them through a chemical purification process. Rising rare element prices might change this in the future. Addendum: quick google search gave http://www.molycorp.com/ as a developer of recycling technology.

> Rising rare element prices might change this in the future. They can't. The mining of rare elements isn't constrained by resources, only cost. Setting up the kind of infrastructure needed for REE recovery would always cost more than mining, so if the prices start going up again, mining will just be expanded.

> The mining of rare elements isn't constrained by resources, only cost.

Ok, I am not an expert on the topic of REE mining, consumption and recovery, but I would say that availibility and access of mining sites are a strong factor e.g. at some point of rare earth element consumption the parties mining these elements might be able to dictate prices. I am pretty sure that RE mined in China might have a special tax for export.

Might be interesting to look up some cost information regarding the recycling and mining processes.

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#17

Post by anigbrowl »

nnq wrote: post #4

> What’s rare is finding deposits that can be mined profitably, in part because most contain radioactive thorium. (from the linked older article) Sounds a bit weird: Would mining a thorium rich deposit have higher environmentally related costs? Isn't the thorium itself valuable as well?

Yeah, but you need extra protection for your workers, handling the ore, not contaminating everywhere between the mine and your eventual customer. All this costs money, and thorium is available from many sources so it may cost more money than your customer is willing to pay.

Mining's a messy business, it's not like you just bring a lead box with you and drop an occasional nugget of thorium in while you get on with your other work.

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#18

Post by dangrossman »

mcone wrote: post #15

This article didn't really discuss the environmental impacts of the mines, which is probably substantial. Is that why the mines are so expensive to operate in the US? And is that why China produces so many more rare earth metals -- because they skimp on environmental protections?

It is. This mine was shut down after an environmental accident, and it's cost them over $1 billion to recover from that and prepare to reopen, split between new environmental licenses and new processing equipment that allows them to mine without trucking in dangerous chemicals to separate the materials in the ores. The new process is based on high-pressure recycled salt water, doesn't leave behind toxic tailing ponds that can leak into waterways, and isn't how the Chinese run their mines.

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#19

Post by Tuna-Fish »

adventured wrote: post #8
jofer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would mining a thorium rich deposit have higher environmentally related costs? Yes, absolutely! > Isn't the thorium itself valuable as well? Not at present. It's basically a waste byproduct at the moment. If it becomes widely used as a nuclear fuel in molten salt reactors, that might change. It is used in a few alloys, etc, but there aren't a large number of industrial uses for it.

Sounds like a classic scenario in which one should massively stockpile thorium, or find a way to buy ownership in such. We seem to find valuable uses for nearly everything over time (and history is littered with examples of 'tossed to the side' materials that are later worth a fortune).

Thorium prices are really not going to rise all that much.

People have a hard time understanding what the six-seven orders of magnitude difference in energy density between nuclear and chemical fuels means in practice. Basically, even if the entire world switches to being powered only by thorium, thorium will still mostly be a waste product.

For the amount of digging you need to power a single coal plant you could power the entire earth and still have most of your production idle.

Re: A Visit to the Only American Mine for Rare Earth Metals

#20

Post by markmassie »

jofer wrote: post #7
nnq wrote: post #4

> What’s rare is finding deposits that can be mined profitably, in part because most contain radioactive thorium. (from the linked older article) Sounds a bit weird: Would mining a thorium rich deposit have higher environmentally related costs? Isn't the thorium itself valuable as well?

> Would mining a thorium rich deposit have higher environmentally related costs? Yes, absolutely! > Isn't the thorium itself valuable as well? Not at present. It's basically a waste byproduct at the moment. If it becomes widely used as a nuclear fuel in molten salt reactors, that might change. It is used in a few alloys, etc, but there aren't a large number of industrial uses for it.

That's one of the major problems with thorium. It is much more abundant than uranium, but uranium is mined from uranium-dense deposits. There are no equivalent thorium-rich deposits. Instead, thorium is sprinkled across the Earth's surface. So one has to sift through more earth to mine thorium than it takes to mine an equivalent amount of uranium, which is an often overlooked environmental disadvantage of the thorium cycle.
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