Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently. • Hacker News Board

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#131

Post by froo » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:15 AM UTC

ken wrote: post #127

froo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so you're suggesting that there is a correlation between how attractive a user interface is and the number of users/trolls? Well then let's break it down to its most simplistic form, the Operating System, seeing as that affects every service. How do you account for Windows and OSX, seeing as most of your trolls would come from Windows based machines and yet most people would agree that OSX has the superior/most a…

I think you're over-generalizing. I'm only claiming that interface has a big effect on behavior you see in a particular place, not how the behavior got there. I certainly don't believe (and didn't mean to imply) that seeing an "attractive" interface causes a behavior change in an individual. I also disagree that comparing operating systems is "simplistic". What operating system a person is using today is based on a h…

Well then the effect you're describing has more to do with population density than interface?

When things start getting crowded, people start generally becoming rowdy - it seems to be human nature. You can have a small home party with 10-20 people and it's fine. Throw in a hundred gate crashers and it becomes a nightmare.

The thing with the internet is the anonymity that is afforded by such communities means that there is less of a barrier for people to become jerks. Look at YouTube or 4chan.

Youtube has a huge population and the comments are filled with volatile diatribe. Conversely, look at Vimeo - it's a much nicer interface, yet it doesn't have the same community issues that Youtube has.

Now let's look at 4chan. It has a simplistic user interface, but with extreme anonymity and a large enough population, it's the cesspool of the web.

I just don't think your "pretty interfaces = bad" argument has any merit.

Digg wasn't half bad when it FIRST came out, but as more people flocked to it, the quality went down. Ask a few of the old HNers and they'll argue the same about HN since it has grown in size, they argue that the quality has gone down. I mean, we see a thread complaining about it almost every other week it feels like.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#132

Post by froo » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:20 AM UTC

Zev wrote: post #119

axod wrote: post #62

This is a sad thing in terms of Freenode, and users trying to access it from Mibbit, but will not affect Mibbit as such. I remember using Freenode early on when I discovered open source. It was a fantastic vibrant place with hackers all over the place. openprojects, lilo, great... Unfortunately, maybe it's got too big. The atmosphere has changed for the worse IMHO. In my opinion, the staff no longer represent the com…

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you completely and stand beside Freenode's decision. As someone who is an ircop on another network with a few thousand users that also blocks Mibbit, abuse is not a red herring at all. The last time Mibbit was unbanned on the network, it was used repeatedly for users to evade channel bans and harass users. Implementing a non-standard protocol that only Mibbit seems to use is not a v…

And then have the gall to accuse the network of wanting to make a profit itself?

To be fair, I was the first one making that accusation (not axod) and I clearly indicated that it was a tinfoil hat moment - time will tell, but the banning of mibbit and the implementation of their own webchat client (well, currently a default installation of an open source client) is awfully convenient given axod wrote a post on mibbit's revenue only the day before.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#133

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:34 AM UTC

sho wrote: post #82

abstractbill wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...it would allow Mibbit to readily spoof basic user identity. What conceivable reason would Mibbit have for doing that? Mibbit must be trusted to ... not allow proxy connections No, that's not true. Mibbit must be trusted merely to pass-on the correct IP. Then Freenode's existing proxy detection can handle the job of rejecting proxied connections. You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here, and s…

"You are publicly calling into question Mibbit's integrity here" I know nothing about Mibbit beyond their web page and their colourful representative here, but - it's not about the personal integrity of the founder, or whatever. Mibbit's whole business model is around advertising. The more page views, the more advertising, the more profit. They have no investment in any other metric. It is reasonable to assume Mibbit…

[deleted]

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#134

Post by pyre » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:37 AM UTC

Zev wrote: post #125

axod wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "Implementing a non-standard protocol that only Mibbit seems to use is not a valid answer to this problem." We currently have WEBIRC setup with 454 IRC networks, representing around 200k users. I hardly think that's a "non standard protocol that only mibbit seems to use" is it now. All modern IRC servers support it out of the box. I don't think I indicated freenode was planning to make a profit out of their client…

Given there are thousands of IRC networks around, I'm not claiming Freenode was standing to make a profit from this; you did: "* It makes money" — I also mentioned that you stand to lose money if a major network doesn't let users use your client. I'm not claiming this is your motive for wanting people to use Mibbit. I don't know what you think. Just that from an outside perspective, its a possible thought. And I don'…

> I'm not claiming Freenode was standing to make a profit from this; you did: "* It makes money"

I think that you should re-read that unless you are saying he said that Freenode "Isn't open source" as well...

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#135

Post by pyre » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:48 AM UTC

ankhmoop wrote: post #97

swombat wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May people who use Mibbit do so because they are sitting behind firewalls that do not allow IRC. The Freenode client is freenode-specific, and only works with freenode. It also lacks a lot of Mibbit's features, from the sound of it.

Quite a few of my development peers sit behind such firewalls and yet can and do still connect using their desktop clients. It's not something we discuss, so I don't know what method they're using, but as a member of the community in question it's fairly readily assumed that you'd know how to handle such a situation. We're under absolutely no responsibility to provide "IRC accessibility" to all comers.

To rephrase things another way, would you ban mIRC if you determined that 100% of disruptive users used it as their client? Even though there are plenty of legitimate users of mIRC?

It seems more likely to me that there is some sort of objection to 'web clients' because desktop clients are the 'one true way' to access IRC. Note that I say this as someone that prefers to IRC from console clients like BitchX and irssi through a screen session.

I known plenty of people that have used IRC that don't 'know' what IRC really is other than how to use the graphical elements of their client to access things for the 'chat room'.

And in this case you are not 'providing' IRC accessibility. Mibbit is providing that. The only thing that you're doing is restricting accessibility by banning Mibbit. Now if Mibbit were banned by default on your IRCd and you had to 'grant access' to them you could argue the other case.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#136

Post by ankhmoop » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:51 AM UTC

axod wrote: post #117

ankhmoop wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because insinuating anyone who uses mibbit is incapable of installing an IRC client is not a sniping remark? No, simply that as an initial barrier to entry for a technical community, "browsing to a web page" isn't very difficult and serves poorly as a first-pass filter.

You should block email from webmail clients. I hear they're very easy to use.

Quite a few registration forms do block webmail addresses for reasons of abuse.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#137

Post by ankhmoop » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:52 AM UTC

zackattack wrote: post #110

This is messed up. The only reason I use mibbit is to get on Freenode when I'm coding at public terminals.

You authenticate to source control and other services while using a public terminal?

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#138

Post by allenbrunson » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 12:53 AM UTC

Zev wrote: post #121

axod wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another fun quote: jtrucks: because mibbit users are retards and they think mibbit is the only way

I've actually spoken to several users who found that to be true. Even if silly, from the point of view of someone who knows what IRC is. Which is far from everyone. //edit: don't care much about karma, but I am curious as to how pointing out that not everyone knows what they're doing on IRC gets me downvoted.

You are agreeing with someone who said "mibbit users are retards." That's not the kind of language that's encouraged around here.

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#139

Post by pyre » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 1:02 AM UTC

abstractbill wrote: post #46

ankhmoop wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freenode manages their web client directly, which means that they can: 1) Manage it directly, immediately, and independently of any third party as to quickly respond to abuse. 2) Directly trust the web client's reporting of IP addresses, which is the primary form of unregistered user identity management on IRC. 3) Perform proxy detection on incoming web client connections, which they already use for non-web connectio…

(1) and (2) both boil-down to saying "we don't trust the operators of Mibbit to pass on the IP address accurately". Do you have examples of the IP address being inaccurate? (3) makes no sense, assuming you do trust the IP address, so doesn't add anything more than (1) and (2). You can already perform proxy-detection if you have WEBIRC and you trust the reported IP.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=665610

Apparently #perl found a way to get around this without banning all of Mibbit. Maybe others should take the time to put more than a "F* YOU!!" into this?

I'm curious as to how much time you've spend solving the problem vs. complaining about it in forums/channels... I can say that right now I have more respect for the #perl guys than you, and I'd never heard of Mibbit before this article...

Re: Freenode has blocked the Mibbit client permanently.

#140

Post by ankhmoop » Sat, Jun 20, 2009, 1:04 AM UTC

pyre wrote: post #135

ankhmoop wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite a few of my development peers sit behind such firewalls and yet can and do still connect using their desktop clients. It's not something we discuss, so I don't know what method they're using, but as a member of the community in question it's fairly readily assumed that you'd know how to handle such a situation. We're under absolutely no responsibility to provide "IRC accessibility" to all comers.

To rephrase things another way, would you ban mIRC if you determined that 100% of disruptive users used it as their client? Even though there are plenty of legitimate users of mIRC? It seems more likely to me that there is some sort of objection to 'web clients' because desktop clients are the 'one true way' to access IRC. Note that I say this as someone that prefers to IRC from console clients like BitchX and irssi…

If mIRC, by it's nature, resulted in a disproportionate maintenance cost as compared to other clients, then yes, I would seriously consider banning it. Mibbit requires additional support from Freenode: trust of its declared client IP addresses, and additional abuse support from the Freenode staff.

I wouldn't demand AOL expend any effort whatsoever to support my 3rd party AIM service without remuneration, and regardless of remuneration offered, it would remain their perogative to say "no".

Why is Freenode, as an independent market actor, not allowed the same prerogative? Is it because Freenode operates as a non-profit, while Mibbit is a small startup?