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Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

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Re: Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

#71
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ross Douthat has a pretty good summary of at least the egghead Republican health care policy preference and its pros and cons. The whole thing is worth reading. http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/why-not-medicaid... Short version: Subsidized catastrophic care for real "insurance", and tax-advantaged HSA's for your more predictable medical costs. The former probably still requires something like the existing…

If that article really is a pretty good summary of Republican thinking in this sphere, then I'd say it completely backs up what I've been saying. There's not much substance in that article. It very briefly mentions the subsidized catastrophic insurance you mention, but it doesn't go into much detail at all. Worse, it completely handwaves away the major problem with that model, namely, what happens to people with chro…

In any case, I don't see how that approach is ultimately very different. Sure, it means people cover a bit more stuff out of pocket, and places a higher burden on sick poor people, but overall it's pretty much the same.

Describing comprehensive health care coverage and catastrophic insurance as "pretty much the same" is factually inaccurate and misses the point of Douthat's piece.

Consumers right now have essentially no motivation to choose a $30,000 maternity bed over a $50,000 one. Third party payment disrupts price signals and encourages overspending. Sure, there are a variety of ways to try to contain costs through centralized oversight or "per capita" reimbursement schemes, but the GOP, at least, believes that nothing works like a competitive market. Laser eye surgery is perhaps the canonical example: It's not covered by most insurance, so providers have had to compete on cost, and the result has been a rapid increase in availability and affordability. That's a free market, and it's nothing like how the vast majority of health care will be paid for post-ACA.

No, you're not going to pick which emergency room is cheaper when you're having a heart attack. Catastrophes are different, that's why you insure against them. But someone who's getting frequent treatment for a chronic disease should absolutely be allowed to consider visiting a less expensive clinic over a research hospital and pocket some of the resulting savings.

Why should I expect Republicans to object to it for any reason other than being the political party of Crazy?

That you think a plan passed by a ridiculously Democratic legislature in Massachusetts and signed by a fairly moderate Republican governor represents the will of the national Republican party is maybe not capital-C "Crazy", but it does call into question how focused you are on the realities of U.S. politics. Did you not notice what a huge stone that was around Romney's neck during the primaries, to the point that he had to make one of his key campaign pledges repealing ACA on "Day 1"?

Remember when Bill Clinton got NAFTA passed and created the WTO? How could Democrats object to comparable free trade agreements after that without being the political party of Crazy, right? GWB saw how that turned out, and even Obama had trouble in his own party getting his USTR confirmed. It turns out that political parties represent shifting interests and diverse demographic and geographic coalitions, and what a GOP governor of Massachusetts thinks is the best political deal he can get for his (deep blue) state may not be reflective of what the party would like as a national policy, especially when that party is skeptical of all one-size-fits-all solutions, and generally prefers state-by-state experimentation.

Re: Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

#72
post #70
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES! Romney called himself "severely conservative" at CPAC ... a phrase you'll only find non-conservatives using in that context (e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=%22severely+conservative%22&... ) You're confounding the current eGOP, as in Establishment GOP, which controls the nominating process, with many of its "completely nuts" elected officials and its base, who've many times in the last few decades declined…

The Republican nominee for President in 2012 is a RINO and doesn't actually count for the purposes of bipartisanship, got it. Seriously, what? What sane definition of "Republican" could possibly exclude Mitt Romney? How the hell am I supposed to know who you do and do not include in "Republican" if that's how you're going to be?

Not in such an indirect fashion. He obviously endorsed "Romneycare" long before the election, he didn't endorse Obamacare during the election.

Again, you claim "bipartisanship" for Obamacare without evidence of votes or the signing of legislation.

As for "sane" definitions, with the end of various systems of party discipline, anyone who calls themselves a Republican or Democrat is one. But that doesn't mean you can't distinguish between different types. Again, go back to after the turn of the century, the feud and eventual party split between progressive Theodore Roosevelt and conservative William Howard Taft, which gave us Woodrow Wilson.

Re: Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

#73
post #62
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're in IL right? For some reason the insurance situation in IL seems to be really crappy. They allow(ed) for looking back further in people's medical history than a lot of other states according to wikipedia. That doesn't explain why the new plans are so much more expensive though even in states that previously had restrictions on preexisting conditions and medical history use in underwriting.

Let's again be clear about what I said. "They" (meaning every insurer in IL) did not "look at our medical history". They looked at visits to doctors and (in one case) the emergency room that did not result in diagnoses, and decided to hedge their bets by presuming a preexisting condition that was not indicated in the record. Another thing that happens --- particularly in California, lest you think this is an IL probl…

It sounds like the insurers decision had more to do with visits to the emergency room than anything else. Those are expensive.

Re: Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

#74
post #73
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's again be clear about what I said. "They" (meaning every insurer in IL) did not "look at our medical history". They looked at visits to doctors and (in one case) the emergency room that did not result in diagnoses, and decided to hedge their bets by presuming a preexisting condition that was not indicated in the record. Another thing that happens --- particularly in California, lest you think this is an IL probl…

It sounds like the insurers decision had more to do with visits to the emergency room than anything else. Those are expensive.

Thanks for your insight.

Re: Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

#75
post #72
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Republican nominee for President in 2012 is a RINO and doesn't actually count for the purposes of bipartisanship, got it. Seriously, what? What sane definition of "Republican" could possibly exclude Mitt Romney? How the hell am I supposed to know who you do and do not include in "Republican" if that's how you're going to be?

Not in such an indirect fashion. He obviously endorsed "Romneycare" long before the election, he didn't endorse Obamacare during the election. Again, you claim "bipartisanship" for Obamacare without evidence of votes or the signing of legislation. As for "sane" definitions, with the end of various systems of party discipline, anyone who calls themselves a Republican or Democrat is one. But that doesn't mean you can't…

Romneycare is Obamacare, at the level of detail you're talking about. Endorsing one is endorsing the other.

I also said it's "as bi-partisan as you can get". That's not a very high bar to clear, I hope you realize. My point is not that there's some imaginary outpouring of Republican support for the idea, but simply that Republican opposition to it is not rooted in any alternative. Obamacare is as bi-partisan as you can get. There is nothing that would be more bi-partisan than that, unless you count "nothing" as something.

Based on history, based on candidates, based on policy, Republicans should support Obamacare. It's their plan! But they don't, because they've become a mindless opposition. Their policy is whatever the Democrats are against. They no longer define themselves, but merely are the negative of their opponents.

That's all I'm saying. There's no alternative health care form that both parties could get behind. Obamacare is the closest you can get in the current climate. The idea that we should delay Obamacare in order to figure out a true bi-partisan reform bill is fantasy, because there is none.

Re: Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

#76
post #75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in such an indirect fashion. He obviously endorsed "Romneycare" long before the election, he didn't endorse Obamacare during the election. Again, you claim "bipartisanship" for Obamacare without evidence of votes or the signing of legislation. As for "sane" definitions, with the end of various systems of party discipline, anyone who calls themselves a Republican or Democrat is one. But that doesn't mean you can't…

Romneycare is Obamacare, at the level of detail you're talking about. Endorsing one is endorsing the other. I also said it's "as bi-partisan as you can get". That's not a very high bar to clear, I hope you realize. My point is not that there's some imaginary outpouring of Republican support for the idea, but simply that Republican opposition to it is not rooted in any alternative. Obamacare is as bi-partisan as you c…

It's their plan! But they don't, because they've become a mindless opposition.

There are obviously people here who both simultaneously think ACA might not be a positive public policy and are not mindless. Some of them might even be registered Republicans. Your constant repetition of the claim that voting for Mitt Romney was somehow an endorsement of a national version of Romneycare when the candidate himself explicitly campaigned on the opposite is, not to put too fine a point on it, silly. It is 100% consistent with federalist principles to believe that Romneycare might be great for the voters of MA, single payer might be great for the voters of VT, but that Obamacare is bad for the voters of the USA. It's also not inconsistent to believe that Romneycare was a horrible idea, but that Romney was still preferable to the alternative Republican candidates and/or preferable to President Obama.

Re: Only 6 people managed to enroll in an insurance plan on Day 1 of Healthcare.gov

#77
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romneycare is Obamacare, at the level of detail you're talking about. Endorsing one is endorsing the other. I also said it's "as bi-partisan as you can get". That's not a very high bar to clear, I hope you realize. My point is not that there's some imaginary outpouring of Republican support for the idea, but simply that Republican opposition to it is not rooted in any alternative. Obamacare is as bi-partisan as you c…

It's their plan! But they don't, because they've become a mindless opposition. There are obviously people here who both simultaneously think ACA might not be a positive public policy and are not mindless. Some of them might even be registered Republicans. Your constant repetition of the claim that voting for Mitt Romney was somehow an endorsement of a national version of Romneycare when the candidate himself explicit…

"There are obviously people here who both simultaneously think ACA might not be a positive public policy and are not mindless.... Your constant repetition of the claim that voting for Mitt Romney was somehow an endorsement of a national version of Romneycare when the candidate himself explicitly campaigned on the opposite is, not to put too fine a point on it, silly."

Not so much silly, but an example of revolutionary truth.

We "mindless" opponents of ACA are wedded to bourgeois truth.

[Much omitted.]

This will not end well.

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