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Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

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Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#451

Post by Iftheshoefits »

ekianjo wrote: post #28
bpodgursky wrote: post #18

I know it's been said before, but to reiterate: outrage doesn't help anything, but buying products from these companies DOES hurt. If you're truly outraged enough to want to take action, take action - writing to your representatives - donating to the EFF or other organizations - by not donating another $2k to Apple for a new Mac*, implicitly endorsing these bullshit tactics - not developing for those platforms (App S…

"Don't buy Macs" is not going to work well around here. Most HNers develop software on Mac and see it as the ideal development platform. I'd say they don't care about what Apple does (it's not the first time Apple does that either).

I guess you may have a point. The recent spate of postings regarding the HealthCare.gov website, which contain numerous comments about the front-end website and proceed to conflate that with development of the entire system lead me to believe a solid percentage of HNers live in a "all development is web development" bubble.

Really until I moved to the Valley I had never really seen people I'd consider "hackers" or "programmers" writing code on anything other than a linux or unix terminal, or in Visual Studio, Eclipse, or some other IDE on Windows. I was actually shocked to see Apple products be so ubiquitous in programmer circles.

Outside of the "web development is all development" monoculture parts of the Valley there is a wide world of software development and developer communities who would basically laugh at the notion that Mac is an "ideal development platform" (some would guffaw at the notion that it's even an adequate one) for anything other than the Apple App Store ecosystem (where it isn't really ideal so much as mandatory, if one wishes to not break laws).

I'd make this conjecture: the vast majority of software development, in the Valley or otherwise, isn't done on Macs; it's really a very small subset of developers who prefer it, and that subset consists mainly of web app and iOS mobile app developers. If the majority of HNers develop software on Apple products, all that means is that HN's primary developer demographic is a tiny subset of the overall industry.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#453

Post by BrandonM »

Iftheshoefits wrote: post #451
ekianjo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't buy Macs" is not going to work well around here. Most HNers develop software on Mac and see it as the ideal development platform. I'd say they don't care about what Apple does (it's not the first time Apple does that either).

I guess you may have a point. The recent spate of postings regarding the HealthCare.gov website, which contain numerous comments about the front-end website and proceed to conflate that with development of the entire system lead me to believe a solid percentage of HNers live in a "all development is web development" bubble. Really until I moved to the Valley I had never really seen people I'd consider "hackers" or "p…

Our 7-programmer startup develops a webapp, and we do it on Ubuntu.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#454

Post by ajross »

masklinn wrote: post #449
pg wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's certainly true that the patent system is broken. But the fact you can get away with doing something due to broken laws doesn't make it ok to do it.

The operative word in cs705's comment is incentive . The patent system is broken in such a way that not only does it makes possible to get away with this behavior, it encourages and rewards it. That's very different than merely "making it possible".

And the operative word in pg's reply is "ok". That Apple, MS, et. al. are acting in their objective self interest (and to the detriment of all of ours!) is an important point. But it doesn't speak to the moral issue which is that such behavior needs to be condemned and not excused.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#455

Post by niuzeta »

alextingle wrote: post #238
pkaler wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your logical fallacy is: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem Conveniently, there is a bullet point list of 5 items in the middle of that article. You are free to disagree with any of those points: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Incorrect. If I read the article, and then dismiss the content simply because it was written by Rob Enderle, then that's ad hominem . On the other hand if I notice the article is written by well-known-fool Rob Enderle and don't bother reading it, then that's just good time management.

Would you mind expanding on Rob Erderle? I've heard not nice retorts on him but not quite some details and would like a few pointers.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#456

Post by Iftheshoefits »

BrandonM wrote: post #453
Iftheshoefits wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you may have a point. The recent spate of postings regarding the HealthCare.gov website, which contain numerous comments about the front-end website and proceed to conflate that with development of the entire system lead me to believe a solid percentage of HNers live in a "all development is web development" bubble. Really until I moved to the Valley I had never really seen people I'd consider "hackers" or "p…

Our 7-programmer startup develops a webapp, and we do it on Ubuntu.

Yep. I didn't mean to imply that all webapp development was done on Apple platforms, either. In fact, what I really meant, but worded poorly, was that it's really a very specific subset of the developer "community" that: a) thinks "all development is web development" and b) "web development" is ideal when done on Apple platforms.

My experience mirrors what you have explicitly stated--most development, web app or otherwise, isn't done on Apple products.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#457

Post by allochthon »

Arjuna wrote: post #417
cs702 wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unhappy with Apple and Microsoft too, but the real enemy is a broken patent system that creates the perverse incentives that motivate companies to launch lawsuits like this one, to the detriment of society. Regardless of who wins, we have already lost, because we have a patent system that discourages innovation and competition in software! Maybe the prospect of patent Armageddon will finally force lawmakers to ad…

This whole story brings on such a lugubrious feeling. I mean, I guess we can chalk it up to human nature, but, patent system aside: How did we ever arrive at the place where we believe that everyone else must lose in order for someone to win? How did we get to a point where we believe that we have to take from someone else's plate when there's more than enough to go around? How did we lose the vision that bringing th…

we are not intelligent enough and civil enough to simply do "The Right Thing?"

With the majority of people, who are generally decent, the honor system is workable. Problems arise with a minority of people who are willing to exploit loopholes and engage in freeloading (e.g., patent trolls). This creates the tragedy of the commons [1]. With the existence of freeloaders, it is necessary to carefully craft public policy to discourage freeloading and rent seeking. Right now the US (and perhaps international) patent system does just the opposite.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#458

Post by chc »

VikingCoder wrote: post #413
jasonlotito wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are required to maximize their profits, This meme needs to die. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/09/h... "There are no statutes that put the shareholder at the top of the corporate priority list." "Nor does the law require, as many believe, that executives and directors owe a special fiduciary duty to shareholders." It needs to die. Edit: And there are many, many other places you ca…

Shareholders can and have replaced the Board of Directors of public companies, based on their lack of faith in the company's ability to maximize profits. The Board of Directors is in charge of hiring and firing for the senior executives. The Board of Directors and Senior Executives know this, and aren't stupid. All that has to happen is that shareholders (which are often other corporations) need to act RESPONSIBLY, a…

If you are seriously suggesting that Tim Cook would have been ousted had Apple not gone down this road, I think you and the rest of the world are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#459

Post by gaius »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #242
gaius wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft and Apple make money by selling actual products. Google makes money by selling you .

Google isn't selling me . They're selling a service based on information they get from me in exchange for a product they make for me. It's just another form of payment. Every form of payment comes with it's own benefits and drawbacks. (I didn't downvote you by the way. I never downvote)

Except it's not as simple as "don't use GMail and you're safe" - they have their finger in every pie via their ad system. You can very, very easily opt-out of using MS or Apple products.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#460

Post by dnautics »

ajross wrote: post #454
masklinn wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The operative word in cs705's comment is incentive . The patent system is broken in such a way that not only does it makes possible to get away with this behavior, it encourages and rewards it. That's very different than merely "making it possible".

And the operative word in pg's reply is " ok ". That Apple, MS, et. al. are acting in their objective self interest (and to the detriment of all of ours!) is an important point. But it doesn't speak to the moral issue which is that such behavior needs to be condemned and not excused.

well, that's a tricky calculation. It's possible that Apple and MS have miscalculated the backlash on this, and they will be net losers. As for morality, although I disagree with it, there is a moral case for intellectual property rights. That this absurdity is an outcome of it suggests that there's something wrong with the foundational moral assumptions, but given that people are calling this a "nuclear" case - it's reasonable that many people did not forsee this coming.

4.5 billion dollars. If lawyers are even taking 1% of that - good gosh. So many other things in this world 45 million could be better spent on.

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