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Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

moot.it

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Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#131

Post by callum85 »

jashkenas wrote: post #37

While I'd usually prefer to be nice in the mornings ... starting off with those benchmarks got my goat. So. This sort of thing is a beautiful demonstration of marketing, big promises, and bombastic rhetoric in open source. But one of the best things about open source is that you don't have to take such claims at face value. If you actually look at the source, you'll find: https://github.com/moot/riotjs/blob/29ae687ca…

> (And if this is all an elaborate joke, then I'm an ass for falling for it ;) But that's not the sense I get.)

Actually I think it is a joke. Kind of. It's an elaborate argument for a philosophy (basically: eschew frameworks, use jQuery for DOM and events, manage your own MVP structure).

They go on to say "You don't need a framework" (repeatedly), and "Riot is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery".

I see it as a functioning demo to present an opinion about how apps should be written. Viewed like this, the whole "world's fastest framework" thing seems tongue-in-cheek. Their use of the familiar "Unveiling a new framework" device is a conceit to push a philosophy. It's allegorical.

I admit that starting off with silly benchmarks undermines the point a lot :)

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#132

Post by callum85 »

jashkenas wrote: post #37

While I'd usually prefer to be nice in the mornings ... starting off with those benchmarks got my goat. So. This sort of thing is a beautiful demonstration of marketing, big promises, and bombastic rhetoric in open source. But one of the best things about open source is that you don't have to take such claims at face value. If you actually look at the source, you'll find: https://github.com/moot/riotjs/blob/29ae687ca…

> (And if this is all an elaborate joke, then I'm an ass for falling for it ;) But that's not the sense I get.)

Actually I think it is a joke. Kind of. It's an elaborate argument for a philosophy (basically: eschew frameworks, use jQuery for DOM and events, manage your own MVP structure).

They go on to say "You don't need a framework" (repeatedly), and "Riot is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery".

I see it as a functioning demo to present an opinion about how apps should be written. Viewed like this, the whole "world's fastest framework" thing seems tongue-in-cheek. Their use of the familiar "Unveiling a new framework" device is a conceit to push a philosophy. It's allegorical.

I admit that starting off with silly benchmarks undermines the point a lot :)

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#133

Post by sequoia »

druska wrote: post #109
sequoia wrote: post #88

I apologize if I'm missing something, I'm not a data visualization expert, but what the heck is going on with that graph? http://content.screencast.com/users/sequoia.m/folders/Jing/m...

The bars are relative to data in it's own category (eg. 200x), you're comparing apples to oranges.

mmm. Well there's no scale & no explanation of this method so it's not really clear what's going on. I get what is meant now, but there really should be a scale here to make it clear or at least an explanation.

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#134

Post by tipiirai »

sorich87 wrote: post #126
tipiirai wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seriously thought you could do better than this. I was expecting trolly responses from other framework communities but not from Backbone. I prefer reasoning and proper conversation instead of this hate speech that the framework communities are all over. I was hoping you were closer to a scientist. So far no reasonable arguments why Backbone is better. Is it just larger, slower and less effective? I was expecting yo…

This looks like hate speech: > Current frameworks persuade false beliefs with shiny websites and finely crafted marketing without transparent, scientific analysis. They solve hypothetical problems and cause new problems instead. Unfortunately, large communities are dealing with irrelevant issues. You're telling jashkenas (indirectly) that he "persuade false beliefs", "without scientific analysis", that he's solving "…

It's not hate speech.

The blog entry states that you can implement the Todo MVC app with 1kb of extra code on top of jQuery and the end result is smaller, modular and faster. This is big news.

The statements on the post are indeed bold but I think they are still valid. They should deserve a better response IMHO. This seriously questions the relevance of current client-side frameworks.

Without constructive criticism should we just agree that others are bigger, slower and less productive ??

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#135

Post by tipiirai »

druska wrote: post #109
sequoia wrote: post #88

I apologize if I'm missing something, I'm not a data visualization expert, but what the heck is going on with that graph? http://content.screencast.com/users/sequoia.m/folders/Jing/m...

The bars are relative to data in it's own category (eg. 200x), you're comparing apples to oranges.

Thanks for the short way of explaining how it works. Will add this exact clarification on the site.

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#136

Post by callum85 »

callum85 wrote: post #131
jashkenas wrote: post #37

While I'd usually prefer to be nice in the mornings ... starting off with those benchmarks got my goat. So. This sort of thing is a beautiful demonstration of marketing, big promises, and bombastic rhetoric in open source. But one of the best things about open source is that you don't have to take such claims at face value. If you actually look at the source, you'll find: https://github.com/moot/riotjs/blob/29ae687ca…

> (And if this is all an elaborate joke, then I'm an ass for falling for it ;) But that's not the sense I get.) Actually I think it is a joke. Kind of. It's an elaborate argument for a philosophy (basically: eschew frameworks, use jQuery for DOM and events, manage your own MVP structure). They go on to say "You don't need a framework" (repeatedly), and "Riot is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery". I see it…

Just to clarify... Obviously it's not a pure allegory; there is an actual JS library being offered here. But I think the author intends it more as a reference implementation of some boilerplate to get you started with his DIY philosophy. I do think he's taken it too far by directly benchmarking it against frameworks, which are conceptually different things. It's all a bit mixed up, and this has caused a hypey and flamey conversation. But get past all that, and it does make an interesting point – that you can (surprisingly easily) achieve several things that we normally associate with frameworks, without a framework.

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#137

Post by sorich87 »

tipiirai wrote: post #134
sorich87 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks like hate speech: > Current frameworks persuade false beliefs with shiny websites and finely crafted marketing without transparent, scientific analysis. They solve hypothetical problems and cause new problems instead. Unfortunately, large communities are dealing with irrelevant issues. You're telling jashkenas (indirectly) that he "persuade false beliefs", "without scientific analysis", that he's solving "…

It's not hate speech. The blog entry states that you can implement the Todo MVC app with 1kb of extra code on top of jQuery and the end result is smaller, modular and faster. This is big news. The statements on the post are indeed bold but I think they are still valid. They should deserve a better response IMHO. This seriously questions the relevance of current client-side frameworks. Without constructive criticism s…

- 1kb + jQuery is bigger (or almost the same size) as the other ones without jQuery (except Ember.js).

- Comparing template engines only (with the riot solution having less features) doesn't give a complete picture for comparing speed. There are dozen of other parts to make a web app. The template is only a small part. Benchmarks aren't even a good way to compare speed. It's how the user feels when using the resulting app and interacting with the UI that matters.

- TodoMVC is a very small app for comparing productivity. E.g. your router implementation doesn't take into account IE bugs, and researching such bugs instead of using a proven solution can be less productive.

I agree with you that modular and maintainable web apps can be developed with jQuery only, and even plain JavaScript only. I dislike, as much as you do, "Backbone developers", "AngularJS developers", "Ember.js developers", etc. who can use only one framework, can't properly structure an app without using a framework, and claim that the framework they use is the only good one to solve any problems and build any type of app.

A good developer should be able to choose the proper solution for a particular problem. There's no one size fits all solution for every problem.

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#138

Post by tipiirai »

jashkenas wrote: post #13

[Retracted.] ... but, if you're going to test Underscore templates for speed, you need to use the `variable` setting to avoid the `with` block.

I used the `variable` setting but it was actually slower. I used it as you teach on the website:

_.template("Using 'with': ", {answer: 'no'}, {variable: 'data'});

I could do this with pre- compilation. Possible?

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#139

Post by rdsubhas »

jashkenas wrote: post #37

While I'd usually prefer to be nice in the mornings ... starting off with those benchmarks got my goat. So. This sort of thing is a beautiful demonstration of marketing, big promises, and bombastic rhetoric in open source. But one of the best things about open source is that you don't have to take such claims at face value. If you actually look at the source, you'll find: https://github.com/moot/riotjs/blob/29ae687ca…

Most of the complexity in UI projects is in the Presenter (aka backbone view). Not the model or template, which are much more easier probles to tackle - but its the Presenter where all the complexity lies. e.g. parent/child aggregations, one presenter calling another presenter's functions (like re-render, etc), custom teardown behavior, and so on...

I totally appreciate this effort. But if I were to try the same thing, instead of creating a Model structure (which could easily be handled with plain JQuery itself), I'd put more thought on the Presenter.

But hey, I didn't, and this guy did, so much appreciated indeed. This is certainly an inspiration, time for everyone to think "What does your project need?" vs "What does the framework provide?".

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#140

Post by oceanstone »

kevincennis wrote: post #100
jashkenas wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And sadly, with great pain, I rest my case. --- But hey, if you want to try out a hot new framework that Fits in A Tweet™, I've got something special for you. Announcing Revolution.js It's a mere fraction the size of Riot.js, and provides over 100 times the functionality. Despite the unbelievable size, all the building blocks are there: a template engine, router, event library and a strict MVP pattern to keep things…

Issue #1: Arguments object has no method `slice`. Steps to repro: Invoke the constructor. I'll send a PR as soon as this makes it to Github. -------- In all seriousness though, I completely agree with you.

The revolution will be open sourced. https://github.com/ChrisAntaki/revolution
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