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Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

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Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#421

Post by btilly »

timrichard wrote: post #345
Tyrannosaurs wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't the point being made that this is better not looked at as a good versus bad, it's better looked at as one sort of bad against another sort of bad. The fact that one of them is slightly better than the other in one regard doesn't change the fact that neither of them are really that worthy of your support. You're right that Google haven't been patent aggressors up until now but if recent behaviour teaches us…

"The fact that one of them is slightly better than the other in one regard doesn't change the fact that neither of them are really that worthy of your support" Retaining them defensively isn't "slightly better". Using them offensively is significantly worse. "You're right that Google haven't been patent aggressors up until now but if recent behaviour teaches us anything it's that Google have been very willing to chan…

Retaining them defensively isn't "slightly better". Using them offensively is significantly worse.

That is only until you study how you use defensive patents defensively.

Suppose that you join a patent pool like http://www.rpxcorp.com/. Then you're sued by a patent troll with no assets other than a patent. How exactly is RPX going to help you?

They used to state it in their FAQ. Then removed it, but I'm sure they still do it. They negotiate with the troll. And to make it cheap, they give the troll what they want. They give the troll another patent, in return for a binding contract to not sue anyone protected by RPX.

(I became aware of this possibility after 3 patents taken out with my name on it when I was younger got sold to RPX.)

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#422

Post by m_mueller »

kvb wrote: post #382
m_mueller wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example by not supporting standards like svg and png as long as they had the market leadership?

On the other hand they ensured that every Windows user had free access to a high quality browser (at least, at the time IE6 came out).

Well yes, I think with 'decade' GP was referring to everything from the advent of firefox to the introduction of IE9, which might not actually amount to a decade (didn't check). Within this timeframe MS was severely lagging behind in standards, thus requiring everyone to choose between

* support only IE (which they were hoping for of course)

* introduce browser conditionals everywhere

* only use a very limited feature set as the lowest common denominator (leading to table layouts everywhere, using jpg instead of png, never even think about transparency)

This did IMO slow down the development of the web as a whole for quite some time.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#423

Post by asadotzler »

x0x0 wrote: post #178
pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

but say I want a smartphone, what is my alternative? google, who works harder and harder to sell everything I do to advertisers (now you can't even rate apps w/o a google+ account), and who just shut off transmitting search data so they can screw site owners for more $? microsoft, who is a party to this and actively worked to make the internet worse (and succeeded!) for the better part of a decade? or apple, who at l…

Mozilla is working on your alternative with Firefox OS. We're still very early but there is no doubt in my mind that Firefox OS is going to do to the smartphone market what Firefox did for the browser market, get vendors fighting over users and developers by improving the user and developer experiences and opportunities.

We need a real competitor here with a completely different kind of agenda and, IMO, Mozilla is the competitor to do that. (Yes, I work for Mozilla on Firefox OS, but I'm not just spouting off. It took us a while to get from Mozilla in 1998 to Firefox but we did it and it fixed the browser market. We're getting into phones for the same reason and you can help us fix this market by joining the Mozilla Firefox OS project.)

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#424

Post by oijaf888 »

dd36 wrote: post #391
jasonlotito wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are required to maximize their profits, This meme needs to die. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/09/h... "There are no statutes that put the shareholder at the top of the corporate priority list." "Nor does the law require, as many believe, that executives and directors owe a special fiduciary duty to shareholders." It needs to die. Edit: And there are many, many other places you ca…

There may not be statutes but there absolutely is case law. In fact, I'm sure there are indirect statutes. There's just no way that the purpose of a for profit company is not to maximize profits to the owners of that company. There may be reasonable debate about where best to deploy capital but those decisions should be justified.

What is the timeframe for maximizing profits? If I can liquidate the entire company and maximize profits for that quarter am I required to do so? If I can avoid instigating expensive legal battles and the associated bad PR to maximize profits in the next 10 years wouldn't I be just as required to do that?

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#425

Post by philwelch »

dd36 wrote: post #391
jasonlotito wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Companies are required to maximize their profits, This meme needs to die. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/09/h... "There are no statutes that put the shareholder at the top of the corporate priority list." "Nor does the law require, as many believe, that executives and directors owe a special fiduciary duty to shareholders." It needs to die. Edit: And there are many, many other places you ca…

There may not be statutes but there absolutely is case law. In fact, I'm sure there are indirect statutes. There's just no way that the purpose of a for profit company is not to maximize profits to the owners of that company. There may be reasonable debate about where best to deploy capital but those decisions should be justified.

I think I addressed this point in another thread once: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6505161

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#426

Post by cwoods »

jasonlotito wrote: post #384
VikingCoder wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are required to maximize their profits, and patents are a legal framework for creating profit. I absolutely blame the patent system, and it's absurd of you to suggest otherwise.

> Companies are required to maximize their profits, This meme needs to die. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/09/09/h... "There are no statutes that put the shareholder at the top of the corporate priority list." "Nor does the law require, as many believe, that executives and directors owe a special fiduciary duty to shareholders." It needs to die. Edit: And there are many, many other places you ca…

Interestingly it doesn't seem to talk about this case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Company

"The Court held that a business corporation is organized primarily for the profit of the stockholders, as opposed to the community or its employees. The discretion of the directors is to be exercised in the choice of means to attain that end, and does not extend to the reduction of profits or the nondistribution of profits among stockholders in order to benefit the public, making the profits of the stockholders incidental thereto.

Because this company was in business for profit, Ford could not turn it into a charity. This was compared to a spoliation of the company's assets. The court therefore upheld the order of the trial court requiring that directors declare an extra dividend of $19.3 million."

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#427

Post by jmodp »

mythz wrote: post #120
pinaceae wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google threw the gauntlet when it took a billion dollar investment into a mobile OS and gave it away for free. these dumping tactics ruined the market for licensed OS like Windows. did anybody truly believe the rest of the software industry would take it up the ass from google without fighting back? bing, apple maps, patents, etc - all part of the war. how much money does MS already make off android due to lost paten…

Exactly which part of investing billions of dollars acquiring and developing a technology and giving it away for free, lowering the price of consumer devices, needs to be prevented? If they've discovered a business model that enables them to invest, develop and freely distribute their own tech to end-users benefits, they should encouraged, not a victim of established cartels using their cash war-chest to buy B.S. pat…

>> Exactly which part of investing billions of dollars acquiring and developing a technology and giving it away for free, lowering the price of consumer devices, needs to be prevented?

The part where it ends up eliminating competition and results in a mono culture?

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#428

Post by cloverich »

yock wrote: post #388
cloverich wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't blame the patent system. While it is true that patent system should be reformed/eliminated ... But thats the point. You can blame the companies all you want, another will always be there to step up and take advantage of it. I do blame the companies, but what does it matter? Are we likely going to see an Apple Boycott? I doubt it, and changing one companies business practices will have little impact on the ind…

Every system has its exploits, will you blame those systems for their failures? Individuals are always to blame because individuals are the actors in the broken system. The blame must always lie with those doing wrong, or else we're just absolving ourselves of the hurt we cause each other.

I'm a pragmatist at heart is all. I look for the action that leads to the outcome I want, and I don't believe outcry against companies will ever have any impact on the patent system, outside of resultant legislative action.

> Every system has its exploits, will you blame those systems for their failures?

The system is responsible for maintaining the most beneficial incentives possible. In some cases, it is difficult or even impossible to remove those exploits, and in those cases I look to blame individuals to the maximum extent possible. But in this particular example, there is little to no apparent benefit to having (the current) patent system in place, and only perverse incentives. While it doesn't absolve the companies of their behavior, I don't see how it can be viewed as anything other than an inevitable outcome (given the system design). In that light, I may avoid Apple products for instance, but am generally uninterested in any complaint or action that isn't targeted at the root cause which for all intents and purposes can be fixed!

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#429

Post by ubercore »

keypusher wrote: post #315
pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

Just like Apple's ridiculous $1 billion patent lawsuit against Samsung hurt their reputation? Oh wait, it didn't hurt them at all and it's already forgotten. You are giving the tech community way too much credit if you think they really care about this, and the average person won't even notice.

I think it might be a bit early to draw that conclusion. Whether by coincidence or not, it did coincide with Samsung's rise as the biggest rival to iPhones. Granted other Android manufacturers around the same time started to compete head to head as well, I think that even if that case isn't at the forefront of people's mind, it was a brick in the wall.

It's important to remember how unassailable Apple felt before that. Any kink in their armor hurts them, and that was a big one.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#430

Post by neovive »

Android has really been a source of innovation over the past few years. I would hate to see things take a step back. I recall a couple years ago, when Google had to remove the integrated search feature from Android -- that searched both local and online -- due to some IP infringement.
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