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Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

moot.it

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Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#111

Post by mattgreenrocks »

nilliams wrote: post #90
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Current frameworks persuade false beliefs with shiny websites and finely crafted marketing without transparent, scientific analysis. It is all marketing. Notice how shiny Angular/Ember's site is? Open source mindshare is not determined by technical superiority! There is plenty of marketing, hype, and fashion that controls it. Big paintbrush here, but many devs don't seem to care a lick about how composable things a…

> It is all marketing. Notice how shiny Angular/Ember's site is? You realise how absurd it is to say that just because a project has a nice website it is all marketing ? I genuinely thought you were being sarcastic and agreeing with me before your next sentence! > Open source mindshare is not determined by technical superiority! There is plenty of marketing, hype, and fashion that controls it. There's a degree of hyp…

Sorry! I'm not trashing these projects at all. They're very impressive. (Aside: I don't think it's healthy to be as invested as you are in random Internet comments.)

But, as you said, there is hype/publicity with OSS. I wanted to emphasize that is not a pure meritocracy, even within OSS. If people aren't ready for your project, then it won't be adopted, regardless of how good it is. It is very similar to consumer technology.

Regarding composability: what are your thoughts on communities (like Clojure's) that consciously reject the notion of One True Framework?

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#114

Post by tipiirai »

jashkenas wrote: post #80
facorreia wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since I was used as proof of the effectiveness of "puffery", I went to find out what that English word means: "promotional statements and claims that express subjective rather than objective views, which no 'reasonable person' would take literally". Well, I don't claim to take all my decisions based on pure reasoning. Intuition has a lot to do with my technology choices, because it's built on all my prior experiences…

And sadly, with great pain, I rest my case. --- But hey, if you want to try out a hot new framework that Fits in A Tweet™, I've got something special for you. Announcing Revolution.js It's a mere fraction the size of Riot.js, and provides over 100 times the functionality. Despite the unbelievable size, all the building blocks are there: a template engine, router, event library and a strict MVP pattern to keep things…

I seriously thought you could do better than this. I was expecting trolly responses from other framework communities but not from Backbone. I prefer reasoning and proper conversation instead of this hate speech that the framework communities are all over. I was hoping you were closer to a scientist.

So far no reasonable arguments why Backbone is better. Is it just larger, slower and less effective? I was expecting you to argue against those points that are now clearly visible to everyone.

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#115

Post by dmackerman »

It looks like a nice little library. Unfortunately, most of these "micro super fast i can build a todo app in 4 lines of code" things aren't enough anymore.

Most of us aren't building "Todo" apps. We're building bigger apps which require - or are more suitable - for a framework like Angular/Ember. That's just my 2 cents.

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#116

Post by esailija »

tipiirai wrote: post #98
jashkenas wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And sadly, with great pain, I rest my case. --- But hey, if you want to try out a hot new framework that Fits in A Tweet™, I've got something special for you. Announcing Revolution.js It's a mere fraction the size of Riot.js, and provides over 100 times the functionality. Despite the unbelievable size, all the building blocks are there: a template engine, router, event library and a strict MVP pattern to keep things…

As the author of Backbone I can understand your rage. I think that instead of bashing Riot you should focus on reasoning the existence of Backbone instead. Riot is clearly not just a jQuery and people can realize that.

Riot is just jQuery though. The riot's own source code is literally useless. I agree with the ideas that you can structure your application without frameworks like backbone though

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#117

Post by sanderjd »

ssmoot wrote: post #70
tipiirai wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Riot does templating, routing and separation of concerns rather beatutifully, I would say. Those are the things most frameworks are build for. What do you see missing? The amount of Todo MVC code in Riot is actually smaller than in Backbone but like I say on the post the focus should not be on the code size but on simplicity – and this is why Riot advocates MVP a lot. Actually Backbone also seems like a MVP framework…

It seems the Presenter example is pretty broken (unless I'm just stupid). I don't see a `todo` variable defined anywhere, but it's used in several places. Perhaps `var model =` was just missed in a rename? Also, the "toggle all" function uses a `filter` variable that's undefined AFAICT. I'm not trying to knock the framework. I like what I see. Just a little hard to follow along when I'm not sure if the code is wrong,…

I thought the same thing about the `store` variable in the `Todo` object. Not sure what we're missing.

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#119

Post by nilliams »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #111
nilliams wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is all marketing. Notice how shiny Angular/Ember's site is? You realise how absurd it is to say that just because a project has a nice website it is all marketing ? I genuinely thought you were being sarcastic and agreeing with me before your next sentence! > Open source mindshare is not determined by technical superiority! There is plenty of marketing, hype, and fashion that controls it. There's a degree of hyp…

Sorry! I'm not trashing these projects at all. They're very impressive. (Aside: I don't think it's healthy to be as invested as you are in random Internet comments.) But, as you said, there is hype/publicity with OSS. I wanted to emphasize that is not a pure meritocracy, even within OSS. If people aren't ready for your project, then it won't be adopted, regardless of how good it is. It is very similar to consumer tec…

> Aside: I don't think it's healthy to be as invested as you are in random Internet comments.

Probably :) Of course though, I do think we should all be aware there are people on the receiving end of these comments we casually fire at frameworks that have worked crazy hard on those projects. (Listen to this episode of The Changelog with the maintainer of Capistrano if you want to hear some evidence of the effects of this [1]). Vague, dismissive comments can sometimes be the hardest to hear.

And yeah, I suppose sweeping generalisations are a massive bugbear of mine. At my previous job whenever I heard one heading my way I knew I was usually in for a ton of work to correct them so that we could _just do sensible work_. I think I have PTSD from that experience. :)

I physically shudder when I hear the word 'bloat', for instance. (It's usually followed by some amount of ignorant tosh from someone who hasn't learned what that 'bloat' is there for).

[1] http://thechangelog.com/110/

Re: Riot.js – A 1kb client-side MVP framework

#120

Post by courtneycouch0 »

esailija wrote: post #116
tipiirai wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the author of Backbone I can understand your rage. I think that instead of bashing Riot you should focus on reasoning the existence of Backbone instead. Riot is clearly not just a jQuery and people can realize that.

Riot is just jQuery though. The riot's own source code is literally useless. I agree with the ideas that you can structure your application without frameworks like backbone though

From the repo: "Riot is a manifesto for vanilla JavaScript and jQuery."

I think that's really the point. Rejecting the idea of these big frameworks and promoting vanilla JS.. Rejecting the myth that without big frameworks your code is unmanageable.

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