Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 554 posts

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#241

Post by bad_user »

hengheng wrote: post #228
bad_user wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Voting with your wallet works. We need to start treating companies like they are members of our society - if one of your neighbours turns out to be a jackass to your other neighbours, do you tolerate him just because, hey, he just wants to make a profit? Fuck that. Companies must learn to play nice and it's insane to treat them differently than we treat people. It's a huge double standard and if you expect the sy…

Well the problem with boycot is you will find some reason to boycot one of the big players every week. When everyone does their ranking at their yearly smartphone purchase, the whole boycot becomes intransparent. If there were an association of smartphone vendors, a club of app developers or a federation of tech bloggers, saying "Don't do this or we'll stop to support you", this would work out very differently. You c…

Well, true, but we also have to adjust our expectations - the patents system will never go away or be fixed until these big companies stop supporting it.

When Apple released iOS as a really locked-down operating-system, I complained about it, but on the other hand it was nothing major. Heck, it was their toy, their hard work, their platform, when other people or companies want something different, more open, more tuned to certain niches, or whatever, then they should work in that direction by building their own operating-system, their own platform, right?

But patents lawsuits are evil, because it prevents alternatives from emerging. It's a really bad loophole that works against healthy competition. Say, Firefox OS takes off, do you think it will be spared?

So that's why right now I'm angry and I think we really should not tolerate patents trolling. It's one thing to acquire patents for defensive purposes. It's an entirely different thing when such a company becomes offensive (and don't think I have forgotten about Google not stopping the Motorola's lawsuits as soon as they bought them).

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#242

Post by fauigerzigerk »

gaius wrote: post #232
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me the issue isn't marketing itself. It's that in order to show me personalized ads they need to know a lot about me. They have to compile and store a personal profile that can be stolen or subpoenaed by anyone who is sufficiently capable or powerful. But I agree that there is a dilemma. The alternative to ad based business models is to make a payment via a credit card, which identifies me even more directly and…

Microsoft and Apple make money by selling actual products. Google makes money by selling you .

Google isn't selling me. They're selling a service based on information they get from me in exchange for a product they make for me. It's just another form of payment. Every form of payment comes with it's own benefits and drawbacks.

(I didn't downvote you by the way. I never downvote)

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#243

Post by bad_user »

zurn wrote: post #192
x0x0 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but say I want a smartphone, what is my alternative? google, who works harder and harder to sell everything I do to advertisers (now you can't even rate apps w/o a google+ account), and who just shut off transmitting search data so they can screw site owners for more $? microsoft, who is a party to this and actively worked to make the internet worse (and succeeded!) for the better part of a decade? or apple, who at l…

Firefox OS and Jolla. Firefox OS + ZTE Open: cheap and good battery life (70€ / $80, 2-7 days).

Right now Firefox OS on ZTE Open is a work in progress. It has tremendous potential, but in case you get one, don't expect the level of polish you get with the popular alternatives. But it's improving and it will get there and if you can, buying one is a good way to support its development.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#244

Post by Joeri »

cloudwalking wrote: post #225
Joeri wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, iphone and windows phone are the alternatives to google's > 80% hegemony at this point. Still, google is a far nicer market owner than apple or microsoft ever were. They don't abuse their dominant position, which is why their competitors are forced to take private legal action instead of running to the government for help.

Google doesn't have >80% of the market. Android has >80% of the market. Google does not control Android. Yes, Google provides a lot of services for Android users, but Android works fine without Google services. Everybody is so quick to forget about "Android fragmentation," but fragmentation is a clear indicator of Google's lack of control over Android.

You can fork android and not license the google services, but it means doing without youtube, maps and chrome. That's a horrible experience.

In reality almost everyone nicely complies with google's compatibility definition, constraining how far they can fork android, just in order to get access to google's closed source apps: https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Google%20Inc...

Only amazon has managed to make a viable usable fork of android that complies with legal requirements, and the amount of work it took them was prohibitive for anyone not on amazon's scale.

Android as OS is open source, but android as experience is very much under google's control. Like i said though, they have been quite benevolent, because they view android as a vehicle to get you to use the google services.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#245

Post by daviddumenil »

buro9 wrote: post #213
partyanimal wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Rockstar consortium is an organization backed by Apple, Microsoft, BlackBerry, Ericsson and Sony."

Not all members are equal parties and it's not hard to feel that the leaders in this group are Microsoft and Apple. They have the means, the motivation, and both have track record. Blackberry are in no place to do this, Ericsson haven't been of this nature, and whilst Sony could they have enough distraction going on at the moment to focus their attention elsewhere. I also feel those three would gleefully follow Apple…

It's worth noting that although the lawsuits were issued yesterday, the consortium was finalised in June 2011 when all of the group members were strongly involved in non-Android smartphones.

It's not unreasonable to suspect that this action was planned as part of that formation and priced into the bid.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#246

Post by bad_user »

OoTheNigerian wrote: post #201

Anytime I see the latest "outrage" on HN, I laugh and remember us, citizens of my country that want to protest as long as they are not required to personally sacrifice too much. Most of these companies depend on you hackers (I do not write code) to be successful. If you decide to pull your apps from the app store, stop buying their products and write a post telling everyone why you made the move, they will be hurt. E…

> Of course, Facebook will one day eliminate all privacy settings, or Google will put ads in our inbox and there will be outrage again.

As I was explaining in another comment, if you or other people or other companies don't like something, they can always build something better. If that something is good and provides more value to some people than the popular alternative, then it will take off. That's how the free market works, that's how Android became popular.

Patents lawsuits on the other hand are a loophole of capitalism, preventing the emergence of competition. I haven't been worried in a long time that Windows is still king of desktop operating systems, because Windows is no longer relevant because of technological disruption. I'm not worried if Facebook eliminates all forms of privacy controls, as teenagers are already preferring other platforms precisely because of privacy issues (e.g. who wants their grandma to see their drunk-at-party photos?). But what if Facebook will acquire enough patents as to nuke all alternative social networks?

Now that's a reason to worry. And this outrage is entirely justified. I also don't like your apathy and your cynicism. All the freedoms and luxuries you enjoy today come either from technological disruption, or from people that were outraged and that decided to do something about it. I also don't understand your position on this matter - if you agree that patents are bad, then your cynicism does nothing else but to waist other people's time.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#247

Post by ubernostrum »

cromwellian wrote: post #164
pinaceae wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

comparing Linux to Android is ridiculous. Linus released and built it from genuine, ulterior motives. google wanted a platform to display ads.

No, Google wanted a platform that prevented Microsoft and Apple from completely controlling and owning the onramp to the mobile web with two dominant proprietary operating systems that prevent third party software installs without approval, a huge huge reduction in freedom even comparing it to Microsoft in the 90s. And in that regard, they did the world a favor, regardless of whether it was selfish or altruistic. It…

Not to go all meme on you, but let me FTFY:

Google wanted a platform that prevented Microsoft and Apple from beating them to control of the next big advertising platform.

Nothing more, nothing less. "Open" has been shown conclusively to take a back seat to monetization. It is as much a marketing tactic (in the sense that it's useful to promote the platform, but can and will be discarded, with spin to explain why, when its usefulness decreases) as anything in Microsoft's or Apple's ads.

And it doesn't matter how you try to downplay it: companies other than Google have, whether they intended to or not, accomplished undeniable good through things they've shipped. Apple, for example, has contributed monumentally to LLVM, which is a large and useful public good. But it did so more or less explicitly to screw the GPL.

So, faced with all the major players doing this in some form or another, how, precisely, do you plan to rank them relative to each other in order to discern which one is "good" or at least "least bad"?

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#248

Post by grey-area »

x0x0 wrote: post #178
pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

but say I want a smartphone, what is my alternative? google, who works harder and harder to sell everything I do to advertisers (now you can't even rate apps w/o a google+ account), and who just shut off transmitting search data so they can screw site owners for more $? microsoft, who is a party to this and actively worked to make the internet worse (and succeeded!) for the better part of a decade? or apple, who at l…

but say I want a smartphone, what is my alternative?

I agree all mainstream choices suck, but there are alternatives: FirefoxOS or Ubuntu Phone

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#249

Post by bad_user »

What I don't understand is why in the world are companies allowed to buy patents in the first place? At the very least, patents should NOT be transferable.

How is it acceptable for companies with big pockets to simply buy 6,000 patents and then sue the shit out of whomever they don't like?

I mean, to some degree, I accept that patents in the health-care industry are helping, because research labs spend years and enormous amount of money on research, with results that can be easily copied. And so they need the first mover advantage in bringing the product they researched on the market. It's not perfect, but at least it has some economical and moral ground.

But how in the world is it acceptable for patents to be transferred, like they are assets? If you weren't the one doing the research, then you shouldn't be the one that benefits from a government-granted monopoly, no matter how much money you have.

Re: Patent war goes nuclear: Microsoft, Apple-owned “Rockstar” sues Google

#250

Post by midko »

bowlofpetunias wrote: post #224
pg wrote: post #61

It's a little early to say for sure, but I predict this will do more to hurt Apple's reputation in the tech community than anything they've done before. And that is not a good community to alienate. I would not be surprised if they look back on this move one day and feel that they ended up net worse off as a result. Apple used to be careful not to alienate hackers. And Microsoft has been gradually digging itself out…

This may be true, but let's not get fooled into thinking that because "they" are the enemy, Google must be our friend. Google is playing a very dubious game here, and it has nothing to do with being on "our" side of the patent issue. They've tried to buy the same patents, refused to participate in a joint effort to safeguard those patents for all, and then knowingly violated those patents. All through this, they've b…

> "very dubious game"

Quite a statement especially on the background of the other companies involved. Any substantial arguments for that? Until recently, Google had not filed even a single patent lawsuit [1] and so far still has not done so against Apple, MS, and the like, afaik. Meanwhile, the 'rockstars' have been going rampant [2].

[1] http://www.fosspatents.com/2013/02/google-files-first-patent...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone_wars

Post reply on HN