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It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

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Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#171

Post by gph »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #136

Google needs to fight back. The first thing Google should do is encourage HTTPS everywhere. Google should change the algorithm to prefer sites that support HTTPS everywhere. Matt Cutts should make some video like: "Google uses over 200 different signals to determine page relevancy. Our users value privacy, so one of the signals we use is whether the site uses HTTPS. We tend to prefer to send search users to secure si…

But can we still trust Certificate Authorities at this point? If HTTPS was widely adopted, that would just give the NSA a new point of attack. CAs have already been compromised, and there are probably plenty that have handed over keys to the NSA that we don't know about.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#172

Post by duairc »

tptacek wrote: post #160
duairc wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're getting this “out of bounds” thing from. I didn't tell anybody to shut up. I didn't tell them that they can't say what they're saying. And even if I did, it's not like I'm in any position of power to force them not have that discussion. I just alluded to the negative consequences of having such a discussion (yes, discussions on the Internet do not exist in a vacuum, and they do have material…

I looked you up before referring to you as a "he", but if your preferred pronoun is "they", I'm happy to respect that.

Okay, I appreciate that. People generally refer to me as “he”, and I usually don't say anything, but sometimes it bothers me. But that's neither here nor there. I appreciate that you made an effort at least.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#173

Post by duairc »

tedunangst wrote: post #161
duairc wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no possible reason for people to support these programs and so it is pointless and even harmful for us to talk about possible reasons. I almost agree with this, were it not equivocating two different senses of the phrase “possible reason”. There's no legitimate reason for people to support these programs and so it is pointless and even harmful for us to talk about possible reasons. There are possible reason…

Who decides what's legitimate and what's not?

The short answer is: you.

Obviously there is no objective universal criteria for legitimacy or morality or anything like that. It will come down to what your personal politics are, a fact which will itself be hugely influenced by your material position in the web of power relations that structures your social reality.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#176

Post by hyperbovine »

jcampbell1 wrote: post #136

Google needs to fight back. The first thing Google should do is encourage HTTPS everywhere. Google should change the algorithm to prefer sites that support HTTPS everywhere. Matt Cutts should make some video like: "Google uses over 200 different signals to determine page relevancy. Our users value privacy, so one of the signals we use is whether the site uses HTTPS. We tend to prefer to send search users to secure si…

That would be great, but it would not have done a thing against the most recently revealed NSA attack vector. NSA compromised the private fiber intranet connecting Google's datacenters. Perhaps those should have been encrypted but at any rate, client-server encryption isn't going to guard against that sort of attack. It's really appalling.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#177

Post by twoodfin »

jthrowaway11 wrote: post #164
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

I am a long-time HNer who created a throwaway account to answer your question. I have firsthand knowledge of engineers who work at the NSA, although I have no affiliation with any government agency. What I can tell you is that these engineers believe that the NSA does not intentionally spy on Americans. This is something that the NSA constantly tells itself. They have various controls and procedures to minimize the d…

What I can tell you is that these engineers believe that the NSA does not intentionally spy on Americans. This is something that the NSA constantly tells itself. They have various controls and procedures to minimize the data of US persons. They go to meetings about how not to spy on US persons.

Do any of the Snowden revelations contradict these beliefs? Having the capability to spy on millions of Americans' Gmail accounts is not the same as unchecked use of that capability. It's interesting that in all the leaks, we haven't (to my knowledge) been given a single example of true abuse of access to intercepts that wasn't caught and punished. Were they just really careful with that information while careless with everything else Snowden made off with?

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#178

Post by karterk »

ihsw wrote: post #158
jcampbell1 wrote: post #136

Google needs to fight back. The first thing Google should do is encourage HTTPS everywhere. Google should change the algorithm to prefer sites that support HTTPS everywhere. Matt Cutts should make some video like: "Google uses over 200 different signals to determine page relevancy. Our users value privacy, so one of the signals we use is whether the site uses HTTPS. We tend to prefer to send search users to secure si…

HTTPS everywhere carries a cost to Google -- crawling the web. There certainly are increased costs associated with crawling an HTTPS-only internet, and the search appliance no doubt prioritizes HTTP over HTTPS.

Even at Google's scale, at this point, I think it's a negligible cost.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#179

Post by duairc »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #167
duairc wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's no possible reason for people to support these programs and so it is pointless and even harmful for us to talk about possible reasons. I almost agree with this, were it not equivocating two different senses of the phrase “possible reason”. There's no legitimate reason for people to support these programs and so it is pointless and even harmful for us to talk about possible reasons. There are possible reason…

So I agree with the article and I agree that NSA has gone too far. But your comment feels like you have bought a jump to conclusions mat from "office space". If, for example, during the process of obtaining clearance, you were to receive certain information that you don't have now, perhaps that would change your opinion of legitimacy of these programs from a binary 0 or 1 to a more nuanced probability distribution

This reminds me a bit of Russell's teapot[1]. Basically, you're saying, imagine if there existed “certain information”, which nobody can tell me about, but if they could, it would change my beliefs? Okay. Given what I do know, I think the chances of these programs being legitimate are about the same as the chances that there is “between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit”.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#180

Post by alan_cx »

mikeyouse wrote: post #30
sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities, but there could be very legitimate reasons these engineers choose to do what they do. It could just be a challenge for them. Where else can you not only get away with, but be rewarded with a good salary and a pension for hacking into the most secure systems on earth? It must be thrilling to be 'Competing' against the…

Since when did a "challenge" justify or excuse immoral or illegal behavior?
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