It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it? • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#131

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:36 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #86

Phlarp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a terrible reason. These men were the definition of the type of thing a system like this should catch. intelligence agencies had been warned about one of them multiple times and they were both using the internet to self radicalize. The fact that the Boston bombings still happened should be proof enough that these systems either A) Do not work or B) are not being used against this type of threat. If it isn't i…

Or... the system catches things like this all the time, this is just one that slipped through, and if the system wasn't in place, there would be many, many more incidents of this type. Maybe. (This is normally "bear-repellent amulet" type thinking, but I think there's a specific exemption in this case, in that there are good reasons why you'd see no evidence of the system's effectiveness: the government doesn't like…

> there are good reasons why you'd see no evidence of the system's effectiveness: the government doesn't like to get the public riled up by terrorist threats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lDZjiPok3w

Yes, it's a pointed example ("TERRIFIC ACTS OF ATROCITY!!!!1111"), but if you're going to tell me that "terrorism is entirely about riling-up", and therefore politics and powermongering aren't, I think pretty much all of known, including recent, history utterly destroys that argument.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#132

Post by n09n » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:38 AM UTC

tomphoolery wrote: post #99

mikeyouse wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone on HN acts like there's no possible reason for people to support these types of activities, but there could be very legitimate reasons these engineers choose to do what they do. It could just be a challenge for them. Where else can you not only get away with, but be rewarded with a good salary and a pension for hacking into the most secure systems on earth? It must be thrilling to be 'Competing' against the…

My only real fear is that some of these less-legitimate surveillance practices will discourage US companies from forming and people using US-hosted services, which would be a major blow to the United States' already volatile economy. The tech industry is the only industry that is/was actually doing well during the recession, and now our government is behaving dangerously with the trust that many international firms h…

I don't think you understand how feudalism works. If you are based in the US, you have to tolerate NSA spying. But it's very likely that the NSA and FBI will be able to effectively root out foreign spies from the DGSE, PLA, etc, so that ONLY the NSA can spy on you.

If you are based in, say, Russia, you have the FSS spying on you instead of the NSA, but the NSA is still spying on you, perhaps even harder, and you have less protection from them and third parties.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#133

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:41 AM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #28

wellboy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you tell a graduate engineer about the great mathematical problems there are to solve and that solving them will protect the American people, it's quite easy to get a strong workforce behind you. And if they were just engineering small parts it was probably hard to see the whole picture, even more so to judge if it's right or wrong. However, this big PR outrage will probably have them come to their senses and crum…

Yeah I suppose I buy into the micro/macro argument -- "Oh, I'm just working on this awesome data crawling problem that our country will use to stop bad people from entering the country" x 1000s of employees, and then you get a few dedicated folks at the top who put it all together, it gets pretty easy to see how that could result in the types of programs we're seeing

[deleted]

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#134

Post by justinhj » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:45 AM UTC

Not really directly related to the article but it is filled with spelling mistakes. I couldn't read past the fifth one

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#135

Post by mindcrime » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:47 AM UTC

dasil003 wrote: post #79

tptacek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EXTERMINATE ALL RATIONAL THOUGHT. Questions are not allowed. Consideration is not allowed. Context is not allowed. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.

You're trampling over his legitimate point, which is that gears of the US government PR machine are massive, and the well-fed targets of their propaganda are well-fed and cozy, and yet the dangers of government overreach are bigger than ever. Are there potentially reasons why "terrorism" might in fact be a greater threat to our ideals and way of life then government power? Sure! Anything's possible. But such threats…

Are there potentially reasons why "terrorism" might in fact be a greater threat to our ideals and way of life then government power? Sure! Anything's possible. But such threats would need to be justified publicly, they can not be justified behind closed doors with classified documents.

This is, to me, the core point. Government exists to serve US, the People, not the other way around. And to maintain that order of things, government must be held accountable by the People. And we can't do that if our government operates in the shadows, behind a veil of secrecy - regardless of how they justify it.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#136

Post by jcampbell1 » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:47 AM UTC

Google needs to fight back. The first thing Google should do is encourage HTTPS everywhere.

Google should change the algorithm to prefer sites that support HTTPS everywhere. Matt Cutts should make some video like: "Google uses over 200 different signals to determine page relevancy. Our users value privacy, so one of the signals we use is whether the site uses HTTPS. We tend to prefer to send search users to secure sites... blah blah blah ... Enabling HTTPS with PFS will increase your search rank. HTTPS will slow page load times, but the privacy boost exceeds the speed penalty for 99% of sites."

The only reason I don't use HTTPS always is because it slows down page loads, and page speed is huge for PPC performance, and big for SEO. Google needs to hardcode a "privacy" boost into the rankings and make that public.

Within a year, 80% of the web would be HTTPS.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#137

Post by tlear » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:47 AM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

People will do almost anything for money, just right people and enough money

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#138

Post by n09n » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:48 AM UTC

sharkweek wrote: post #45

Cookingboy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm about to say may be too unpopular on HackerNews. Have you considered the possibility that not everyone shares the same moral standard and ideology? People came from different backgrounds and have different experiences, and most things are not black and white, but different shades of gray in this world. I'm sure there are people who consider the Fourth Amendment to be obsolete just like there are people who c…

No condescension intended, I am honestly just more curious -- I'd love to read some honest, uncensored interviews from people working on these things, mostly to just get their side of things. I totally agree that people have varying beliefs on this stuff and for some this might be just as noble as any other way of serving their country.

I don't work for the NSA, obviously, but I agree on the point of the fourth amendment's obsolescence. A world where information is universally available and infinitely reproducible with minimal cost is necessarily a world without privacy. We need to get used to it as a society. People who grew up under the old system will be resistant to change like on every other social issue in history, and will die out to make room for the new generation.

My only objection to the NSA stuff is not the collection of information, but the asymmetry. Snooping on all my emails isn't wrong because email should be private, it's wrong because you have power over me by knowing my email without me knowing yours. Fortunately, things like facebook and twitter acclimatizing people to publishing everything about their lives which will eventually eliminate this asymmetry.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#139

Post by PavlovsCat » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:51 AM UTC

jumby wrote: post #47

sharkweek wrote: post #19

I have an honest and serious question -- who are the developers and designers who put these systems into place for the NSA? Are they aware of what they're doing or is it all classified and contracted out? Are they proud of their work? Is it just a paycheck? Surely someone with such a high aptitude could easily get a job elsewhere -- I guess I'm just unable to make the connection on who willingly builds this kind of s…

screw it, i'll repost my comment here too. I know i'll get the down-vote brigade but meh: Here's what bugs me about all the people chiming in about how messed up this all is. It's like you all think we live in some sort of utopia whereby we are the only ones doing this sort of surveillance. Every single sophisticated foreign intelligence is doing this back at us, their citizens and their enemies - probably with more…

So external threats are real. Granted. How does turning on your own population, and people who are not a threat and wish you no ill worldwide, help here? Being a better baddie is not the only way to deal with baddies, the bit in Team America about assholes, dicks and pussies is stupid bullshit, and the fact that so many people are eating it up doesn't make it less bullshit. Simply consider that everything you just said, "they" tell their people, too, and use it to keep them in line and under control. This kind of thinking is aiding the very things it claims to fight. E.g. War profiteers and mullahs sending people on suicide missions are of the same class, not opposing poles.

Re: It’s time for Silicon Valley to ask: Is it worth it?

#140

Post by kudu » Fri, Nov 01, 2013, 12:51 AM UTC

There seems to be a misunderstanding that a "debate" on the merits and disadvantages of authoritarian surveillance needs to be had. These inexistent pros and numerous cons were already weighed when the 4th Amendment was passed, so unless they want a constitutional amendment, there is no need to have a debate, they should simply respect the supreme law of the land.